Ignore 12:58, she's a smug fool.

Anonymous wrote:DH and I were "golden" children who went to the best schools, made money, became famous in our respective fields. Our first child is off the charts brilliant but ASD, aggressive and has numerous health problems. His childhood has been something that most DCUM parents (and I say "most" because *thank you* SN forum and there is a huge spectrum on this board) have never dreamed of. I make my living being clever and an out of the box thinker but nothing has compared to trying to help DS. He will always lead a different life. And DH and I have a second child who is not such an outlier but as we have "parenting on hard mode" (shall I say expert mode, honestly?) it is a challenge to balance it all and be human.

I have lots of first-world problems in my professional life, but I have been reading DCUM for 10+ years. I simply and more and more amazed and how lucky people are with their children. May you never need to visit a psychiatric hospital for your elementary school aged child. And may you never judge me for having to have had to do so. May you never have to worry that your child who weights 35 lbs could hurt someone and fear sending them to school.

It's been a hard road, but I'm delighted to be the Ivy professor who gives your child the guidance to make it to the next level. It's what's keeping me sane in my own personal fate, which, cruel as it seems often, is nothing like that of parents watching their children die of cancer. There are no guarantees on this Earth.

And to those of you who are still quick to judge in middle age, all I can say is that probably haven't learned much. I hope you have spent the spare time the world has given you without life sh*tting on you on some pretty seriously good work for the world. Tell us about eradicating Polio or a poem you wrote that kept a political prisoner alive or a nursing home population that finds new meaning. Or a rainforest you are saving or documenting or both. Because otherwise please do not talk to me unless it is to offer to take DS for care for a week. (I am fine if you are just chilling, or life has dealt you shitty cards, but if you are judging me, come prepared to play on karma and metaphysics front or stay home.) I'm still trying to cure cancer, but some weeks it is hard with a child who threatens to kill you when asked to do his homework.

Thanks OP for this topic.

You aren't going to want to hear this but oh well.

Your post is full of red flags indicating that your issues with your son are linked to choices and behaviors you and your spouse have made.

Just for starters, touting your achievements from the outset and highlighting external signifiers of high status indicates possible narcissism and likely a household with high expectations and little room for difference or failure. It's the kind of home that can cause anxiety in kids from a very, very young age, and when not treated or exacerbated, that can grow and cause a wide variety of mental health problems. Two parents with extremely demanding, high status jobs means less one on one time with either parent, more time with paid caregivers -- this may cause attachment issues. Very likely your son has anxious or (even more likely) disorganized attachment which can lead to depression and diagnosis of personality disorders.

You are looking at the whole situation as though parenting is similar to your other life experiences and accomplishments, something that can be mastered via brute force or dedication. It's not. Parenting is the ultimate finesse skill, it can't be hacked or crammed for or multitasked into submission. Using the approach you might use to ascend to the top of a competitive field is unlikely to be effective unless you get the most amenable and adaptable child, and even then that kid will almost certainly wind up in therapy as an adult, they just won't cause you as much trouble as a child.

If it helps, it's highly likely your deficiencies as parents can be traced back to dysfunction in your own childhoods, you could unpack that in therapy and it could help with a lot of things including your son. But it will require real vulnerability and being open to the idea that you have made mistakes and have real accountability for the problems with your on. It might also mean admitting that all the work you've put in for him has been misdirected, and that solutions like more in tough personal choices (like scaling back at work, being willing to admit your wrong, and opening your hear and your ears to your son who might have more intelligent things to say on this subject than you've ever given him credit for) rather than throwing money or "expertise" at it.

Good luck. It's hard to fail at something, especially if it's your first time and you have not cultivate the skill of failing and adapting before.

Anonymous wrote:Some kids need more parenting. Some don't. Just remember that no two siblings get the same parents, the same home, the same nurturing.

So, it is futile to compare kids.

Also, parenting Math is very simple. The more quality and quantity time you give your kids from the get-go and nurture them, the better they will be raised. Some kids need encouragement to explore and be courageous, some need training to self-soothe and self-regulate.

Parents are not know-it-all. They have to learn along with their kids and be a model worth emulating.

In short - parents are to be blamed for kids who fail.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Oh lordy, another science denier.

Not a science denier. There may be a teeny tiny portion of the population that is born a psychopath based purely on innate qualities with no option for parenting them into a functional person.

But no one in this thread is talking about that. They are talking about angry, difficult, hard-to-parent kids. That's it. These are not psychopaths. They are tough kids and the parents get frustrated and come to dislike their kids, and their kids can tell their parents hate them, and it spirals. That's not a psychopath.

Go to a family therapist and figure out how to deal with your own feelings regarding your children, and learn how to properly parent tough kids. It's your job. If your kid didn't start killing neighborhood bets at age 5, you're dealing with a run of the mill tough kid (very likely has special needs or anxiety or depression that is not being properly treated) and you need to just step up to the plate and figure it out. Writing them off as a psychopath is just easier for you, but it's not reality. It's cope.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Why can’t you “go to many restaurants”? They don’t have to eat there, do they?
I have a friend who has a DD with eating challenges (only a few foods) and she just gives her what she brought for her when they go to restaurants with friends

PP you are responding to and my child is still completely disgusted by the sight of and smell of some foods and will literally vomit from having them in their proximity. They have also had full on panic attacks in challenging restaurants. They can go to many more than they could at 2! But it’s still incredibly stressful for the whole family and not something we take lightly. I am happy for your friend their child’s challenges are much more mild, but please don’t make the mid of thinking that approach works for everyone (and I hate to say it but restaurants start to push back on bringing outside food when the kid looks more like an adult, even if you explain the child’s difficulty in excruciating detail).

NP with a kid who has ARFID and I really feel you -- I have been there and it sucks because nobody understands and they all think it's just normal pickiness or that you just didn't offer enough food variety when your kid was a toddler or something.

That said, I do actually appreciate the PP's comment because I think the idea is that you don't have to do it the way other people do it. My kid also has those extreme food aversions to the point of gagging even at the sight or smell of food. But we'd look for any opening. So like for years we only went out to eat if it was one restaurant our kid could tolerate OR we could sit outside where our kid wouldn't have to smell the food and could even walk away from the table if necessary. Like for years that's what we did. So we'd eat out in the summer a lot more because there are lots of patios like that. With time and also lots of therapy that improved and now our kid can go in pretty much any restaurant, even though the range of foods she'll eat is still really narrow. I still bring food pretty much everywhere just to ensure she gets proper nutrition and we do staggered meals a lot (she'll eat her meal at home before we go out, and then DH and I will order food at the restaurant and she will just have a drink or maybe a small side or dessert).

The thing I had to get over was the judgment, because there's so much of it. But eventually I just hit a point where I accepted that no one was going to get it and lots of people would judge or think they knew better. Oh well. I live it so I know. My kid is never going to be an adventurous eater and who knows maybe we'll never have normal restaurant meals with her but we've found a way to make it work so we aren't shut ins for the rest of our lives and we can still travel. You deserve to have a life and not have to structure absolutely everything around your kids disability. I say that from experience and with empathy, not with judgment. I hope you find a way to have meals that are joyful and that nourish you. I know how hard it is when you are right in the thick of it and feel like your options are really restricted.

Some kids need more parenting. Some don't. Just remember that no two siblings get the same parents, the same home, the same nurturing.

So, it is futile to compare kids.

Also, parenting Math is very simple. The more quality and quantity time you give your kids from the get-go and nurture them, the better they will be raised. Some kids need encouragement to explore and be courageous, some need training to self-soothe and self-regulate.

Parents are not know-it-all. They have to learn along with their kids and be a model worth emulating.

In short - parents are to be blamed for kids who fail.

Anonymous wrote:"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Oh lordy, another science denier.

"My kid is inherently bad" is just cope. Even Hitler wouldn't have been Hitler with better parents. Donald Trump probably wouldn't be this absolutely nightmare if his parents had actually loved him instead of shipping him off to military school or whatever.

No one is a perfect parent but 99.99999999999% of kids I've met will be okay if they get enough of the right kind of love and support. Every total nightmare of a kid I've encountered has had one or both parents who are in some way abusive or neglectful. Sometimes in a way they are unaware of. Like I know a girl who is very rageful and angry and her parents are like "yup, that's just how she is" but then they will turn around and tell her, to her face, that her siblings are just better people than she is. Ummmm. That's crap parenting, no wonder that kid is miserable. But the parents can't even see it because they are frustrated and have written her off and only see their own experience dealing with a tough kid and can't step outside themselves and see what it must be like to be a child whose parents just do not like her. That family could benefit enormously from individual and group counseling but what are you going to say? It all sucks but that kid isn't just broken. She's a person who doesn't feel loved or accepted by her family and is acting out in a somewhat predictable way. It probably feels a lot more obvious from outside that dysfunction.

But yeah, this idea that this many people just have inherently sociopathic children who can't be reached? No, it's cope. I'm sure that's hard to hear, but it's cope. Find a good family therapist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:both. But I have noticed it usually takes until 3 kids+ for parents to realize "for real" it's not them. Parents of 2 or 1 kid have an outblown sense of their impact esp. if they don't have a harder to parent kid.

This. Parenting does play a role, but some kids are just difficult and problematic. Mothers with 3+ kids all know this. If you have at least 3 kids, chances are high at least one of them is more difficult than the others. While they may not be a total train wreck, it definitely enforces that how you kids behave and turn out isn’t all because of your parenting and influence.

You have this backwards. Parenting plays the biggest role in the kids who are "difficult and problematic." That's the difference between very good parents and mediocre or bad parents.

Most parents can raise an easy kid with few challenges. The key there is just not to screw it up (which even some parents can't manage). But you don't have to *work* that hard at it if the kid is just kind of naturally flexible and easy going with no special needs or learning challenges.

But some kids have real challenges and then parents have to work at it, and it's hard. And if you do it well, the kids with challenges can be great. If you do it poorly, it can in fact be a total train wreck. The job is harder and not everyone is up to the task. And this is what people are talking about when they say they thought they understood what it meant to be a good parent, and then had an additional kid who had more challenges. That's when you *really* find out what it is to be a good parent, when you realize the level of patience, emotional maturity, creativity, dedication, and faith it takes to to raise some kids to adulthood.

When I encounter a parent who says "oh parenting can only do so much, so kids are just problematic," that's when I know I've encountered a parent who just isn't up to the task.

Some kids are difficult and problematic no matter how good the parenting is. What you end up seeing is “the best” that kid can be. It may seem pretty bad to you as an outsider, but it could be so much worse with poor parents.

One of my good friends has a very difficult kid. They work so hard for him: therapy, parenting support, psychological treatment, on top of his school work. He still gets in a lot of trouble and isn’t passing all his classes. I have no doubt without such dedicated parents he would be a drug addict and in juvy or jail right now.

I really appreciate this. My kids are great kids but have a couple really significant struggles. One has a pretty limited diet despite YEARS of feeding therapy, working out butts off to do everything “right”. And sometimes it’s discouraging that we can’t go to many restaurants and I still have a lot of worries about how their social life will be affected by this. But they are a healthy weight with no nutritional deficiencies and have a food in every food group. I’m in some groups of children who have the same eating issues (ARFID) and it helps me realize these are huge wins. Many of those parents are also trying their best- they are posting and gathering ideas and trying all sorts of things. It’s just a good reminder to have some perspective- I hope the years of interventions HAVE made a difference! We will never really know. But I do know before we got professional help we were definitely making things worse for this child by trying to do the things that worked for us as typical eaters growing up. So I think we easily could have continued down the path of making things worse instead of better.

Why can’t you “go to many restaurants”? They don’t have to eat there, do they?
I have a friend who has a DD with eating challenges (only a few foods) and she just gives her what she brought for her when they go to restaurants with friends

PP you are responding to and my child is still completely disgusted by the sight of and smell of some foods and will literally vomit from having them in their proximity. They have also had full on panic attacks in challenging restaurants. They can go to many more than they could at 2! But it’s still incredibly stressful for the whole family and not something we take lightly. I am happy for your friend their child’s challenges are much more mild, but please don’t make the mid of thinking that approach works for everyone (and I hate to say it but restaurants start to push back on bringing outside food when the kid looks more like an adult, even if you explain the child’s difficulty in excruciating detail).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

This is well put. Both DH and I were pretty low key, introverted kids, whereas our kids are loud and energetic. DH really struggles with their noise level but I try to give them the freedom to be "kids" when they can. e.g., I stress inside voices when we are out in public but if they are home playting a game of hide and seek then I try to let it go and let them have fun as long as everyone is safe. But that also means encouraging DH to take lots of breaks or wear his noise cancelling headphones so he doesn't boil over due to the noise.

What a baby

Anonymous wrote:I think it's nature and nurture. I also think sometimes parents are well suited to their kids natural personalities and other times not, and when there is conflict, it can all go wrong.

But I also think that people who are more flexible and adaptable tend to make better parents in general, because this enables them to be the parent their kids need. Then you don't have to just get lucky with kids suited to your personality, because you have the skills to make it work with any kids.

This is well put. Both DH and I were pretty low key, introverted kids, whereas our kids are loud and energetic. DH really struggles with their noise level but I try to give them the freedom to be "kids" when they can. e.g., I stress inside voices when we are out in public but if they are home playting a game of hide and seek then I try to let it go and let them have fun as long as everyone is safe. But that also means encouraging DH to take lots of breaks or wear his noise cancelling headphones so he doesn't boil over due to the noise.

Anonymous wrote:I was a very strict parent. My adult sons are all very successful. It takes work.

They were good molds

I was a very strict parent. My adult sons are all very successful. It takes work.

Odds are good your kids aren't as good as you think but you've got your head up your own butt.

0:44 PP here - DH & I both have older siblings with kids, and we all started off parenting very similarly, so I see what it “can” be like. From about 2 yrs on, my DC was very different from theirs, despite us all having similar parenting styles/structure/resources. Like night & day now that the kids are older.