Anonymous wrote:To me, it’s worth having a talk to figure out what’s going on, but not necessarily time to freak out yet. I was almost EXACTLY this kid - got my first C in math at 3rd grade. Also in gifted classes - though my school didn’t have any advanced math options in elementary school. I was bored and careless, and would rather read a book than do math. That’s really all it was. Not great, but not that big of a deal either.

My dad sat me down and had a talk about how I could do better and that I should put some more effort in. I knew that he was disappointed in me - and I didn’t want to have another talk like that - so I did step up my game a bit. (FWIW - I really stepped up my game in high school, when I knew that it counted.) It all worked out, and I'm glad that my parents let me take care of it and didn't make it into a bigger deal than it was. Though I will also concede that if this became a pattern, then it would have been time for some additional oversight.

I was easily the most advanced student in my elementary school class (I was given a math book and sent to the back of the room to work ahead on my own while everyone else had to pay attention to the teacher's lectures), but I was careless, and in early middle school I got a bunch of Bs (mostly math and science). After a year of having to measure up against the grading system something finally clicked for me at the end of sixth grade, and from then on I had straight-As through the end of high school, graduated as valedictorian, and went to Stanford. I think it takes some kids a while to figure out what's really expected of them. As an adult, it's very obvious to me that you have to fill out every problem and check your work, and that your grade is calculated from your homework, class participation, and test scores, and that you need to reach a certain percentage. But I don't recall having any real understanding of how my grades were calculated when I was in elementary school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Giftedness completely aside, study skills are really, really important for college admissions. That includes writing out your thought process to check for accuracy. Being very intelligent doesn't immunize you against making small mistakes that throw off your final answer. There are some very smart people who are just disorganized and don't earn the top grades. There are some people who are less smart, but are very organized and do earn the top grades. If you want your child to succeed, you need to work with them on basic study skills. Raw talent is only one variable in the equation.

And, btw, this is why we praise hard work in our house and not being smart. When our daughter succeeds at something we never say "wow, you're so smart!", we say "that's wonderful, you obviously worked very hard at that."

We did too. I will tell you now that this isn't doing your kid any favors, especially if they actually are smart and don't need to "work hard" for the results, and for some kids hearing this lie over and over means they grow up thinking they aren't smart or they develop imposter sydrome, so they only rise to the low bar set by schools or the suceed while seething with anxiety under the surface where you can't see it.

Second point for other kids: Schools will NOT identify ADHD in a smart kid. When you find yourslef saying "he's really gifted, so his low grade must be because he didn't try hard or [fill in the blank]," do yourselves and your kid a favor and get a full neuropsychological exam to make sure you don't wind up with a frustrated and depressed 2e kid who doesn't start to get the help they need until 10th grade. Even geniuses need help if they have ADHD, becasue ADHD isn't about intelligence.

I know you didn't claim otherwise but I just want to add that ADHD meds are not magic pills that have zero short term or long term side effects. By all means get a diagnosis, but don't overlook non -chemical options to manage it.

To me, it’s worth having a talk to figure out what’s going on, but not necessarily time to freak out yet. I was almost EXACTLY this kid - got my first C in math at 3rd grade. Also in gifted classes - though my school didn’t have any advanced math options in elementary school. I was bored and careless, and would rather read a book than do math. That’s really all it was. Not great, but not that big of a deal either.

My dad sat me down and had a talk about how I could do better and that I should put some more effort in. I knew that he was disappointed in me - and I didn’t want to have another talk like that - so I did step up my game a bit. (FWIW - I really stepped up my game in high school, when I knew that it counted.) It all worked out, and I'm glad that my parents let me take care of it and didn't make it into a bigger deal than it was. Though I will also concede that if this became a pattern, then it would have been time for some additional oversight.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Giftedness completely aside, study skills are really, really important for college admissions. That includes writing out your thought process to check for accuracy. Being very intelligent doesn't immunize you against making small mistakes that throw off your final answer. There are some very smart people who are just disorganized and don't earn the top grades. There are some people who are less smart, but are very organized and do earn the top grades. If you want your child to succeed, you need to work with them on basic study skills. Raw talent is only one variable in the equation.

And, btw, this is why we praise hard work in our house and not being smart. When our daughter succeeds at something we never say "wow, you're so smart!", we say "that's wonderful, you obviously worked very hard at that."

We did too. I will tell you now that this isn't doing your kid any favors, especially if they actually are smart and don't need to "work hard" for the results, and for some kids hearing this lie over and over means they grow up thinking they aren't smart or they develop imposter sydrome, so they only rise to the low bar set by schools or the suceed while seething with anxiety under the surface where you can't see it.

Second point for other kids: Schools will NOT identify ADHD in a smart kid. When you find yourslef saying "he's really gifted, so his low grade must be because he didn't try hard or [fill in the blank]," do yourselves and your kid a favor and get a full neuropsychological exam to make sure you don't wind up with a frustrated and depressed 2e kid who doesn't start to get the help they need until 10th grade. Even geniuses need help if they have ADHD, becasue ADHD isn't about intelligence.

Anonymous wrote:Writing IDK does sound a little concerning, but you might be overlooking the possibility he is sick and phusically run down. My kids always performed a littke worse in the cold and flu season.

For some kids who have always had things come easily, it's disconcerting to suddenly have to stop and think about something. They aren't used to that, so a quick "yeah, IDK" is a reflex response. This is a good time to learn that anything worth doing takes time and effort. A lot of quick-study kids hit that experience in about 3rd grade when they get to stuff like long division or multiple digit multiplication which you can't really do in your head -- even more of them hit that wall when they get to stuff like algebra, or foreign languages (where you might have to actually drill on vocab, or study grammar), or things that require some memorization rather than just intuition (like learning the periodic table). Is there a way you can talk more about things that you had to work through, but then you got? Are there other things that he has to really work through -- like a hard lego project?

Anonymous wrote:Giftedness completely aside, study skills are really, really important for college admissions. That includes writing out your thought process to check for accuracy. Being very intelligent doesn't immunize you against making small mistakes that throw off your final answer. There are some very smart people who are just disorganized and don't earn the top grades. There are some people who are less smart, but are very organized and do earn the top grades. If you want your child to succeed, you need to work with them on basic study skills. Raw talent is only one variable in the equation.

And, btw, this is why we praise hard work in our house and not being smart. When our daughter succeeds at something we never say "wow, you're so smart!", we say "that's wonderful, you obviously worked very hard at that."

Giftedness completely aside, study skills are really, really important for college admissions. That includes writing out your thought process to check for accuracy. Being very intelligent doesn't immunize you against making small mistakes that throw off your final answer. There are some very smart people who are just disorganized and don't earn the top grades. There are some people who are less smart, but are very organized and do earn the top grades. If you want your child to succeed, you need to work with them on basic study skills. Raw talent is only one variable in the equation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids in gifted classes, if truly gifted, often do not know how to study or check work. Things come easy until the devil is in the details. I know. My story.

A truly gifted third grader should not NEED to study or check work for a third grade gifted class.

Do some of you folks even hear yourselves?

My kid who is really strong in math learned to write out his work and check it because it was what was expected. It is a skill that kids will need as they get into higher math. It helped that my kid loved math competitions and the math competition teacher required that the kids show all of their work. This reinforced the importance of writing out your work.

That’s great, but has absolutely nothing to do with the comment to which you replied.

The response was to a post that said “a truly gifted third grader should not NEED to study or check work.” Writing out your answers is a part of checking your work and is something that a third grader should be doing, gifted or not. A gifted child, or just a smart kid who grasps math easily, needs to learn proper study skills. For math that means writing out the answer even when you can do it in your head. This practice, which a lot of kids and parents seem to think is unnecessary, was reinforced in a math competition class because the teacher in that class knew that the kids in the class didn’t see the point in writing out or checking their answers.

Too many people think that students shouldn’t have to write out answers when they can do the math in their head. This creates issues later because kids have not developed good study skills that follow them into higher math classes.

For the OP, if her son writes out the answers, like they are supposed to, they are less likely to make mental math mistakes. That is why the parent needs to work with the child on how they are approaching the subject.

o

Bolded is just your opinion.

But no, not showing your work (for work that doesn’t need to be shown) won’t create issues later in life for “truly gifted” children. Gifted children (heck, even just above average children) can start showing their work when and if it’s necessary, and it’s not a hardship for them to learn how. Why? Because it’s incredibly easy!

If your kid needs years of practice to do something so basic then they’re OBVIOUSLY not gifted. Give me a break.

I don’t believe I said my kid is gifted, he loves math and participates in math competitions. His math competition teachers disagrees with you and require the kids show their work on their problems. They have all done this since 4th grade. There is a reason for that. If you think that they are wrong, that is fine, but I am going to trust that they know what they are doing.

He didn’t need to write out his answers to get them correct in third or fourth grade. His teachers wanted him and everyone in the class to be in the habit of writing out their answers because it would be required in higher grade levels and they know that it is a good habit to be in. They were focused on developing good habits. Strangely enough, the professionals who teach math seem to think it is something that kids need to learn and that it is not incredibly easy. Regardless of all the parents who think that it is a waste of time and agree with the kid that it is a waste of time.

If the OPs kid was writing out his solutions, then they could see what mistakes he was making or what he didn’t understand. Writing IDK or getting incorrect answers while rushing through work is not the sign of a kid understanding math. If the kid is rushing through work and getting the wrong answer slows down and writes out the solution, they might get the right answer. Or you could see why they were getting the wrong answer.

So why do you keep arguing over a comment about “truly gifted” children? Has it occurred to you that not every side conversation is about YOU?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids in gifted classes, if truly gifted, often do not know how to study or check work. Things come easy until the devil is in the details. I know. My story.

A truly gifted third grader should not NEED to study or check work for a third grade gifted class.

Do some of you folks even hear yourselves?

My kid who is really strong in math learned to write out his work and check it because it was what was expected. It is a skill that kids will need as they get into higher math. It helped that my kid loved math competitions and the math competition teacher required that the kids show all of their work. This reinforced the importance of writing out your work.

That’s great, but has absolutely nothing to do with the comment to which you replied.

The response was to a post that said “a truly gifted third grader should not NEED to study or check work.” Writing out your answers is a part of checking your work and is something that a third grader should be doing, gifted or not. A gifted child, or just a smart kid who grasps math easily, needs to learn proper study skills. For math that means writing out the answer even when you can do it in your head. This practice, which a lot of kids and parents seem to think is unnecessary, was reinforced in a math competition class because the teacher in that class knew that the kids in the class didn’t see the point in writing out or checking their answers.

Too many people think that students shouldn’t have to write out answers when they can do the math in their head. This creates issues later because kids have not developed good study skills that follow them into higher math classes.

For the OP, if her son writes out the answers, like they are supposed to, they are less likely to make mental math mistakes. That is why the parent needs to work with the child on how they are approaching the subject.

o

Bolded is just your opinion.

But no, not showing your work (for work that doesn’t need to be shown) won’t create issues later in life for “truly gifted” children. Gifted children (heck, even just above average children) can start showing their work when and if it’s necessary, and it’s not a hardship for them to learn how. Why? Because it’s incredibly easy!

If your kid needs years of practice to do something so basic then they’re OBVIOUSLY not gifted. Give me a break.

I don’t believe I said my kid is gifted, he loves math and participates in math competitions. His math competition teachers disagrees with you and require the kids show their work on their problems. They have all done this since 4th grade. There is a reason for that. If you think that they are wrong, that is fine, but I am going to trust that they know what they are doing.

He didn’t need to write out his answers to get them correct in third or fourth grade. His teachers wanted him and everyone in the class to be in the habit of writing out their answers because it would be required in higher grade levels and they know that it is a good habit to be in. They were focused on developing good habits. Strangely enough, the professionals who teach math seem to think it is something that kids need to learn and that it is not incredibly easy. Regardless of all the parents who think that it is a waste of time and agree with the kid that it is a waste of time.

If the OPs kid was writing out his solutions, then they could see what mistakes he was making or what he didn’t understand. Writing IDK or getting incorrect answers while rushing through work is not the sign of a kid understanding math. If the kid is rushing through work and getting the wrong answer slows down and writes out the solution, they might get the right answer. Or you could see why they were getting the wrong answer.

Anonymous wrote:Writing IDK does sound a little concerning, but you might be overlooking the possibility he is sick and phusically run down. My kids always performed a littke worse in the cold and flu season.

Have they ever written I Don’t Know? I’ve never seen that before. He would have had to be sick the whole grade period to blame being sick.

Writing IDK does sound a little concerning, but you might be overlooking the possibility he is sick and phusically run down. My kids always performed a littke worse in the cold and flu season.

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Appreciate all the varied and many earnest perspectives. It does seem to be a maturity issue and not an ability or disability issue, but that will probably just take a couple more years of growing up. Specifically things like writing ‘IDK’ in a blank instead of trying the problem, doodling and just generally not taking the work very seriously. We talked about it, we did re-do some work, and we discussed how to ask for clarification when a question confuses you or try using whatever you learned as your best guess. The grades have improved since then. It’s our first year with letter grades so just wondered how much weight other parents gave to them. We only spend about ten minutes on homework at night.

Writing IDK or avoiding doing a problem isn't a lack of effort, but a signal the work is too hard. Your kid is struggling with the content. A gifted kid who is bored would breeze through quickly, making some sloppy mistakes. Not even trying the work is a signal they don't know how to do the problem and are intimidated.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. Appreciate all the varied and many earnest perspectives. It does seem to be a maturity issue and not an ability or disability issue, but that will probably just take a couple more years of growing up. Specifically things like writing ‘IDK’ in a blank instead of trying the problem, doodling and just generally not taking the work very seriously. We talked about it, we did re-do some work, and we discussed how to ask for clarification when a question confuses you or try using whatever you learned as your best guess. The grades have improved since then. It’s our first year with letter grades so just wondered how much weight other parents gave to them. We only spend about ten minutes on homework at night.

Grades are an indication of where your kid is. I took the 1-4 seriously, a 2 was a red flag. We only saw a few of those and they were in hand writing but those were immediate set up a conference to discuss and see what we could do to help DS improve.

The emphasis should be on the effort, which sounds like it is lacking in your son’s math work. I wouldn’t re-do some work, I would re-do all the work. What you are describing is a kid who is blowing off work in third grade. Until he stops with the doodling and not taking his work seriously there would be more then 10 minutes of homework. If he complained I would tell him that understanding and mastering these math concepts is the founndation of all future math. He has the ability to do better and needs to make his best effort. If he won’t make his best effort at school then we need to work on it at home.

A third grader understands when he is trying his hardest. That is what we have asked DS to do. When he finished his assigned work, he had time to doodle or read or do whatever the teacher had out for kids to do silently while others finished their work. The first thing we commented on was DSs effort scores. If a teacher had told us he was doing sloppy work and was rushing and wasn’t trying, that would have been a problem.

I would be concerned about the C but more concerned about your child’s effort level.

Getting a 2 being a red flag is a stretch. Many teachers like to show growth and will give 2s early in the year so they can show growth over the course of the year. I'd be concerned about 2 on the end of year report card, but not in the first half of the year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids in gifted classes, if truly gifted, often do not know how to study or check work. Things come easy until the devil is in the details. I know. My story.

A truly gifted third grader should not NEED to study or check work for a third grade gifted class.

Do some of you folks even hear yourselves?

My kid who is really strong in math learned to write out his work and check it because it was what was expected. It is a skill that kids will need as they get into higher math. It helped that my kid loved math competitions and the math competition teacher required that the kids show all of their work. This reinforced the importance of writing out your work.

That’s great, but has absolutely nothing to do with the comment to which you replied.

The response was to a post that said “a truly gifted third grader should not NEED to study or check work.” Writing out your answers is a part of checking your work and is something that a third grader should be doing, gifted or not. A gifted child, or just a smart kid who grasps math easily, needs to learn proper study skills. For math that means writing out the answer even when you can do it in your head. This practice, which a lot of kids and parents seem to think is unnecessary, was reinforced in a math competition class because the teacher in that class knew that the kids in the class didn’t see the point in writing out or checking their answers.

Too many people think that students shouldn’t have to write out answers when they can do the math in their head. This creates issues later because kids have not developed good study skills that follow them into higher math classes.

For the OP, if her son writes out the answers, like they are supposed to, they are less likely to make mental math mistakes. That is why the parent needs to work with the child on how they are approaching the subject.

o

Bolded is just your opinion.

But no, not showing your work (for work that doesn’t need to be shown) won’t create issues later in life for “truly gifted” children. Gifted children (heck, even just above average children) can start showing their work when and if it’s necessary, and it’s not a hardship for them to learn how. Why? Because it’s incredibly easy!

If your kid needs years of practice to do something so basic then they’re OBVIOUSLY not gifted. Give me a break.

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