Anonymous wrote:It’s not abandonment if she never actually leaves or go no contact. I would treat pronouncements like this similar to when 5-6 year olds declare they are running away. It’s a way to say they are very upset when they don’t have the maturity/emotional health to manage hurt feelings more constructively. It’s up to you to decide whether she brings more good than not, but I definitely wouldn’t base anything from her “going no contact” since that doesn’t happen.

I hate these analogies. Yes, developmentally, if my 5 year old says she hates me and is going to run away, I am unbothered and I still cook her dinner and put her to bed with a kiss. My 68 year old MIL is not my 5 year old daughter. If she tells me she doesn’t like me and is going to not visit us for a few months until she can stand to be around me again, that’s not the same thing. At all. And I’m not going to put up with being treated that way by another adult who then comes crawling back and wanting things from me at Christmas. No.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The anti-MIL posts have become so extreme to the point of being comical.

Or some MILs are seriously terrible and the holidays and the forced togetherness bring it to the forefront of many posters minds, hence the increased posts about in laws.

This. Personality disorders, etc, often look similar.

Anonymous wrote:The anti-MIL posts have become so extreme to the point of being comical.

Or some MILs are seriously terrible and the holidays and the forced togetherness bring it to the forefront of many posters minds, hence the increased posts about in laws.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am very sympathetic to OP here. This woman goes between rejecting OP’s family and ruining all the holidays she demands to attend with her passive-aggressive attempts for sympathy. It’s nothing like the deaf FIL who wants to sit in front of the TV scenario. That guy is doing something contentedly, so it’s easy to enjoy the holiday around him—it’s like parallel play. Hard to do that with a faux-wounded animal sitting in the corner.

OP, any way to make these holiday gatherings bigger with friends and/or family who know the story for MIL? She might be too ashamed to pull this BS around a larger group. Either way, it could help make it a more joyful and normal holiday gathering for you and your kids.

We used to have larger gatherings before her behavior began escalating. We don’t feel comfortable subjecting non-family members to this, it’s awkward enough when it’s just us. Thank you for your sympathies.

—OP

I would rethink that stance, OP. People can choose whether they want to deal with awkwardness or not. Those willing to come knowing about your MIL should be permitted to do so. I’d do this for friends in a heartbeat. The more the merrier.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think you need to do anything. A lot of kids don't see their grandparents consistently and only on major holidays. Your kids don't need to know all the details of every conversation and drama between your MIL and you / your DH. Keep it away from them and when you see grandma you see her. If she is as horrible as you say, I doubt the kids care that they don't see her more often.

See her around the holidays and ignore her the rest of the time (or be ignored by her the rest of the time).

Trying to turn this into a confrontation is only going to backfire on you.

The only thing that bothers me is the awkward tension she brings. The kids definitely feel it and we all walk on eggshells. This is the thing I’m tired of and don’t really know how to navigate.

—OP

Tell kids that grandma has mental health issues because she clearly does. You should just relax and treat her kindly.

This. Be the example for them, they will follow your behavior (and anxiety). When they are old enough, call it what it is and teach them both empathy (the bad behavior comes from an ill place in her mind) and emotional boundaries (it's not about you, not your fault, you are not obligated to change her, you don't have to take abuse and are allowed to walk away, come to me if her beahvior is bothering you and I will help). But you are going to have to learn that along side them, becuse it is clear that you haven't yet. Her mental illness and the behavior that comes with it is not about you, it's not your fault, and you can't change it. Learn how not to provoke and how to diffuse (gray rock) and accept that contact will have to be limited (which isn't a bad thing for you).

She can only handle visits on her own schedule, but she is unable to accept that her own mental state is the reason, so she blames her son. It's how she copes with the terrifying reality of mental instability. That sucks, and you guys don't seserve that, but it isn't his fault and it sounds like he has that figure out, though maybe subconsciousy. He should be able to help you understnad and cope too, but he may not have the awareness of his own coping skills enough to teach it.

For me, it was helpful to talk to a psychiatrist about my loved one's mental illess to learn what was going on with them and how to talk to them and manage their beahvior in a safe and healthy way (I'm talking delisions and voices, not just perceived persecution), and also how to protect my own emotional barrier. Sometimes we need help to understand and help others.

This is actually very insightful. Thank you for posting this. You may be right. I think she retreats because she can’t handle being scolded? confronted? about her poor behavior, and then when it’s something run, she wants back in but then acts wounded so she will be given grace. I keep trying to fix it, even assuming consequences will fix her, but you’re probably correct that there is no fixing her, and these are her limitations. It actually makes a lot of sense now.

—OP

Anonymous wrote:I am very sympathetic to OP here. This woman goes between rejecting OP’s family and ruining all the holidays she demands to attend with her passive-aggressive attempts for sympathy. It’s nothing like the deaf FIL who wants to sit in front of the TV scenario. That guy is doing something contentedly, so it’s easy to enjoy the holiday around him—it’s like parallel play. Hard to do that with a faux-wounded animal sitting in the corner.

OP, any way to make these holiday gatherings bigger with friends and/or family who know the story for MIL? She might be too ashamed to pull this BS around a larger group. Either way, it could help make it a more joyful and normal holiday gathering for you and your kids.

We used to have larger gatherings before her behavior began escalating. We don’t feel comfortable subjecting non-family members to this, it’s awkward enough when it’s just us. Thank you for your sympathies.

—OP

Anonymous wrote:You're being difficult at this point. You've gotten a lot of advice and keep posting "but what do I do?!?". You're stuck in this mindset of wanting to be annoyed by her and wanting to make her the villain, so you're refusing to do anything to change the dynamic

I’m doing neither of those things. What I really want is for her to act normal, to not punish my husband with silent treatments, and to not drag our innocent children into the mix as pawns. PPs are correct that I should accept this as a positive, that I should be glad I don’t have to see her often, but then, I have to see my husband hurting because his mother is constantly abandoning him. I also realize this is his situation to quell. But I shouldn’t have to bear witness. Neither should my children. So that’s where I struggle.

I’m not trying to be deliberately obtuse, but imagine you are hosting one singular person, and that one person is sitting in a corner saying nothing. How awkward! It’s just weird carrying on like she isn’t there. I guess I’ll give it a try this year, just rip off the bandage.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think you need to do anything. A lot of kids don't see their grandparents consistently and only on major holidays. Your kids don't need to know all the details of every conversation and drama between your MIL and you / your DH. Keep it away from them and when you see grandma you see her. If she is as horrible as you say, I doubt the kids care that they don't see her more often.

See her around the holidays and ignore her the rest of the time (or be ignored by her the rest of the time).

Trying to turn this into a confrontation is only going to backfire on you.

The only thing that bothers me is the awkward tension she brings. The kids definitely feel it and we all walk on eggshells. This is the thing I’m tired of and don’t really know how to navigate.

—OP

Tell kids that grandma has mental health issues because she clearly does. You should just relax and treat her kindly.

This. Be the example for them, they will follow your behavior (and anxiety). When they are old enough, call it what it is and teach them both empathy (the bad behavior comes from an ill place in her mind) and emotional boundaries (it's not about you, not your fault, you are not obligated to change her, you don't have to take abuse and are allowed to walk away, come to me if her beahvior is bothering you and I will help). But you are going to have to learn that along side them, becuse it is clear that you haven't yet. Her mental illness and the behavior that comes with it is not about you, it's not your fault, and you can't change it. Learn how not to provoke and how to diffuse (gray rock) and accept that contact will have to be limited (which isn't a bad thing for you).

She can only handle visits on her own schedule, but she is unable to accept that her own mental state is the reason, so she blames her son. It's how she copes with the terrifying reality of mental instability. That sucks, and you guys don't seserve that, but it isn't his fault and it sounds like he has that figure out, though maybe subconsciousy. He should be able to help you understnad and cope too, but he may not have the awareness of his own coping skills enough to teach it.

For me, it was helpful to talk to a psychiatrist about my loved one's mental illess to learn what was going on with them and how to talk to them and manage their beahvior in a safe and healthy way (I'm talking delisions and voices, not just perceived persecution), and also how to protect my own emotional barrier. Sometimes we need help to understand and help others.

I am very sympathetic to OP here. This woman goes between rejecting OP’s family and ruining all the holidays she demands to attend with her passive-aggressive attempts for sympathy. It’s nothing like the deaf FIL who wants to sit in front of the TV scenario. That guy is doing something contentedly, so it’s easy to enjoy the holiday around him—it’s like parallel play. Hard to do that with a faux-wounded animal sitting in the corner.

OP, any way to make these holiday gatherings bigger with friends and/or family who know the story for MIL? She might be too ashamed to pull this BS around a larger group. Either way, it could help make it a more joyful and normal holiday gathering for you and your kids.

You're being difficult at this point. You've gotten a lot of advice and keep posting "but what do I do?!?". You're stuck in this mindset of wanting to be annoyed by her and wanting to make her the villain, so you're refusing to do anything to change the dynamic

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe just let her come and go as she pleases but don't give in to the drama. Don't change plans for her, don't make special plans for her, and don't act like it's a big deal if and when she shows up. She's seeking attention and to upend your lives . . . don't give her oxygen.

During her “re-entry”, though, she acts like a wounded animal, cowering in corners and just acting generally uneasy, like someone may yell at her. It creates an incredibly uncomfortable situation, and my kids are old enough to pick up on the awkwardness. I don’t want every holiday to be shrouded in this tension. It’s not fair to them, or to us.

—OP

Let her come over and be awkward. You continue to do you, and you don't give in to her attention-seeking behavior. She wants you to argue with you, she wants to control your emotions, she wants you to ask her what's wrong. Don't.

+1

This is who she is. If your kids ask about it, just respond breezily, "oh, you know grandma, she's often weird when we haven't seen her in a while. Just leave her be" and go about your day.

But what does that look like when we are hosting just her? I feel obligated to sit with the family. What does “go about your day” look like in this instance, when she comes over (she’s local) and expects to celebrate the holiday? It feels rude to just leave the room, but I guess I don’t know what else to do!

—OP

Don’t hover, don’t constantly ask “omg what’s wrong are you ok omg” (the pouters and drama creators live for that type of attention), don’t feel like you have to constantly make conversation - she’s not your mom! Tell her to come a little before the meal is served and if you usually have holiday dinners on the early side, like in the late lunch time frame, maybe push it a little later into a typical if early dinner time frame. So serve dinner at say 5 PM and tell her to show up at 4. You greet her but you’re still really busy cooking in the kitchen. She does the whole pouting thing but you’re just too busy to deal with it! And the kids are watching a movie or playing a game and your husband is maybe helping you or maybe dealing with his mom. Dinner is then served and you eat normally. Then it’s time to clean up so you’re busy with that, she can be awkward with her son for awhile, and she leaves at 8 or whatever because the kids need to get baths and into bed.

I freaking wish I were in your shoes BTW, instead we have to spend a week visiting both sets of parents + a set of childless siblings, all of whom either cannot or will not travel and we’re the only ones who have small kids. I’d love for someone to be weird and pouty in my own house!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have a bipolar brother. It is very difficult as a family member. I would still never cut him off and I see him every holiday.

My MIL isn’t bipolar and still drives me nuts. She also gives us silent treatment and I would be glad not to ever see her.

You suck it up and let her see her grandchildren. This isn’t about you, OP. She is mentally ill.

My friend got divorced over her BP SIL. If my husband made me choose between him and my brother, I would choose my brother. Your poor DH having to deal with his mentally ill mother and non understanding unsympathetic wife.

That’s not fair. I’ve been sympathetic and accommodating for twenty years up until this point. I realize that I have to interact with his mother, but I’m at my wits end. I’m tired, and frustrated, and honestly mad that she’s starting to pull the same thing on my children. No one is “keeping her” from her grandchildren, but if she chooses not to speak with us for months at a time, the natural consequence of that is that she won’t see her grandchildren.

I just wish I had the proper tools to deal with her when she acts this way.

—OP

You do have the tools. She can come sit and observe on holidays. You can’t make her be warm Hallmark Grandma and that is fine.

I guess I’m just curious why we all engage in this facade? It’s fun for no one. DH is miserable, the kids are uncomfortable, and I’m just always left shrugging my shoulders. Why this dance of pretending, year after year?

—OP

Pp with bipolar brother and MIL I can’t stand. Most recently, I have tried to see my family and MIL on days around holiday but not exact day. I can give my brother gifts or see MIL a week after. Both our families are not local so it is easier to do this.

MIL often upsets and says things to upset DH and BIlL. I don’t think anyone actually enjoys her company. It is family obligation.

For my bipolar brother, I’m all he’s got. When he is stable, he is great. When he isn’t, we try to stay calm and wait for him to stabilize. It is stressful for all. He is my brother and I love him.

I want to think my kids learn from us. They are watching us and know family is priority.

It really depends on the severity of the disease, PP. My best friend has had to distance herself considerably from her sister with a cyclical mood disorder (not sure if it's bipolar or something else), because the outbursts were just too violent and she refuses to expose her child to that. Occasionally my friend goes to visit her sister by herself, always in a neutral location where she leave at any moment.

My late FIL had bipolar disorder that went untreated for many years, and was prone to anger outbursts that made family life difficult for his wife and kids. I only knew him when he was well medicated and never saw the anger, but did see his verbal diarrhea, depression and lethargy. His was taken care of by his family until the end, despite years of trauma, because I think he knew how to express love in between his bad phases, and the worst of it had happened decades before, so his wife and grown children understood that he had "improved" with time.

But the most important thing to remember is that you cannot ask someone else to bear the burden of connection with such a diseased mind. YOU can choose, for yourself, to remain in contact. Therefore, OP's husband can visit his mother if he wants, but he cannot force his wife to welcome her into the family home.

They stayed because they were trauma bonded and equated love with those moments of “love” amidst the chaos. It’s very much similar to how a slot machine works—you keep putting in quarters and losing because every once in a while, you win, and winning is exhilarating. It’s the rush of the win.

Perhaps. They also come from a patriarchal, family-oriented culture where it's difficult to abandon one's parents. However I am not from such a culture, and I say that OP can refuse to invite MIL in her own house. To hell with unpleasant people. Life is too short for that. And this is not a blanket statement about special needs and illness in general. My adult son has special needs and has a sweet nature. We've had plenty of very ill family members that we've taken care of, because even though their illness may make them temporarily crazy, we know that's not who they truly are. But the ones who have never controlled their outbursts of vindictiveness or emotional immaturity, never sought to get better, never realized they were the problem? Nope.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe just let her come and go as she pleases but don't give in to the drama. Don't change plans for her, don't make special plans for her, and don't act like it's a big deal if and when she shows up. She's seeking attention and to upend your lives . . . don't give her oxygen.

During her “re-entry”, though, she acts like a wounded animal, cowering in corners and just acting generally uneasy, like someone may yell at her. It creates an incredibly uncomfortable situation, and my kids are old enough to pick up on the awkwardness. I don’t want every holiday to be shrouded in this tension. It’s not fair to them, or to us.

—OP

Let her come over and be awkward. You continue to do you, and you don't give in to her attention-seeking behavior. She wants you to argue with you, she wants to control your emotions, she wants you to ask her what's wrong. Don't.

+1

This is who she is. If your kids ask about it, just respond breezily, "oh, you know grandma, she's often weird when we haven't seen her in a while. Just leave her be" and go about your day.

But what does that look like when we are hosting just her? I feel obligated to sit with the family. What does “go about your day” look like in this instance, when she comes over (she’s local) and expects to celebrate the holiday? It feels rude to just leave the room, but I guess I don’t know what else to do!

—OP

PP here. Are you hosting just her? So it's your nuclear family (you, husband, kids) and your MIL, and that's it?

Just do what you would do if there were eight other people there. "Okay, appetizers in the living room!" set them down, and start chatting and enjoying yourself with your husband and kids. "Hey MIL, how's your dog/gout/winter/hobby?" She: "weirdly mumbles" You: "Alrighty! Hey kiddo, you want to decorate the cookies with me, they're all cool. Anyone else want to join?" She "weirdly mumbles" You: "Okay, we'll be in the kitchen!" and yeah, you walk out of the room.

No eggshell walking, no trying to "solve" the problem. She can join in or not. If she gives a mumbly weird answer, you move on. She can sit there and be awkward, or she can grow up and join the fun. No skin off your nose.

Based on the specifics of what she tends to do, you can role play this out with your husband in advance if you'd like. Or give us some more specific scenarios (set the whole stage) and we'll give you some suggestions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe just let her come and go as she pleases but don't give in to the drama. Don't change plans for her, don't make special plans for her, and don't act like it's a big deal if and when she shows up. She's seeking attention and to upend your lives . . . don't give her oxygen.

During her “re-entry”, though, she acts like a wounded animal, cowering in corners and just acting generally uneasy, like someone may yell at her. It creates an incredibly uncomfortable situation, and my kids are old enough to pick up on the awkwardness. I don’t want every holiday to be shrouded in this tension. It’s not fair to them, or to us.

—OP

Let her come over and be awkward. You continue to do you, and you don't give in to her attention-seeking behavior. She wants you to argue with you, she wants to control your emotions, she wants you to ask her what's wrong. Don't.

+1

This is who she is. If your kids ask about it, just respond breezily, "oh, you know grandma, she's often weird when we haven't seen her in a while. Just leave her be" and go about your day.

But what does that look like when we are hosting just her? I feel obligated to sit with the family. What does “go about your day” look like in this instance, when she comes over (she’s local) and expects to celebrate the holiday? It feels rude to just leave the room, but I guess I don’t know what else to do!

—OP

Stop being purposely obtuse.
Let her sit in the living room or kitchen table or whatever. It’s a few hours, and most of that time everyone will be eating.

It's not at all uncommon for kids to only see grandparents at birthdays and holidays or once a year on vacation. Usually it is due to distance, but many other factors as well. Some don't even get to see them that often. In your case, OP, that sounds like a reasonable relationship balance due to her mental instability. Stop expecting to see her at other times, and you may feel normal about it.