Anonymous
12/04/2025 17:09
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
To be clear, I think you're not considering that IB HL courses consist of a pair of courses that are equivalent to two AP courses as a series in most cases. For example passing the IB English HL exam gives equivalent credit as passing both the AP Language and AP Lit exams. IB Math Analysis HL is equivalent to AP Precalculus AB and AP Calculus AB combined. IB History HL as APUSH and AP World, etc.
Still your point is stands, but it's not 3 IB college courses versus 6-10 AP college courses (actually IB allows a max of four HL).
You are misinformed about the credit IB gets. Link to a college external policy if you have one.
For example at UVA, Math HL only gets credit for one semester of calculus, AP Calculus BC is equivalent to two semesters.
Same with English and History, although some credit is for electives, so it’s an apples to oranges comparison.
Credit is more consistent for AP, and more variable for BC, but generally speaking a one year long AP class gets the same credit as a two year HL class.
Why are you all so focused on college credits? IB is about creating life long learners which is so much more important.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 17:03
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
To be clear, I think you're not considering that IB HL courses consist of a pair of courses that are equivalent to two AP courses as a series in most cases. For example passing the IB English HL exam gives equivalent credit as passing both the AP Language and AP Lit exams. IB Math Analysis HL is equivalent to AP Precalculus AB and AP Calculus AB combined. IB History HL as APUSH and AP World, etc.
Still your point is stands, but it's not 3 IB college courses versus 6-10 AP college courses (actually IB allows a max of four HL).
You are misinformed about the credit IB gets. Link to a college external policy if you have one.
For example at UVA, Math HL only gets credit for one semester of calculus, AP Calculus BC is equivalent to two semesters.
Same with English and History, although some credit is for electives, so it’s an apples to oranges comparison.
Credit is more consistent for AP, and more variable for BC, but generally speaking a one year long AP class gets the same credit as a two year HL class.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 14:15
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:I would guess that more kids pupil place for AP then complete the IB diploma in any given year, which is ridiculous. Lewis had 4 kids complete the IB diploma last year. Four kids. There is no way you can justify the program benefiting the kids at Lewis. SLHS had 50, which is better but right about 10% of the class. How is that benefiting the students?
You should go speak at School Board meeting.
During the 2008 SL boundary, parents BEGGED to switch to AP. They were ignored. In fact, the SB was quite rude. I think that is why they now have speakers with their backs to the audience. They used to stand to the side so you could see them.
I recall that there were Westfield parents getting redistricted to South Lakes who asked for AP at South Lakes. The School Board made promises that weren't kept about adding more AP courses at South Lakes.
But it has nothing to do with the speaker policy. Up until a few years ago speakers directly faced the School Board to speak, and their faces were televised. A few years ago, probably when Karl Frisch was first chairing the School Board, they shortened the speaker time from three to two minutes and stopped showing the faces of those speaking. They claimed it was to protect speakers, especially student speakers, from rabid community members, but it just reinforced the impression that public participation is a joke. You only get two minutes and you're an anonymous blob that School Board members ignore.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 13:58
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
I would guess that more kids pupil place for AP then complete the IB diploma in any given year, which is ridiculous. Lewis had 4 kids complete the IB diploma last year. Four kids. There is no way you can justify the program benefiting the kids at Lewis. SLHS had 50, which is better but right about 10% of the class. How is that benefiting the students?
You should go speak at School Board meeting.
During the 2008 SL boundary, parents BEGGED to switch to AP. They were ignored. In fact, the SB was quite rude. I think that is why they now have speakers with their backs to the audience. They used to stand to the side so you could see them.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 13:47
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
To be clear, I think you're not considering that IB HL courses consist of a pair of courses that are equivalent to two AP courses as a series in most cases. For example passing the IB English HL exam gives equivalent credit as passing both the AP Language and AP Lit exams. IB Math Analysis HL is equivalent to AP Precalculus AB and AP Calculus AB combined. IB History HL as APUSH and AP World, etc.
Still your point is stands, but it's not 3 IB college courses versus 6-10 AP college courses (actually IB allows a max of four HL).
I have had friends whose kids did the IB Diploma and none of them have gotten double class credits for the IB exams, it is one of their complaints. They said that their kids had to print off course syllabi for their classes and go through a process in order to get credits and that the credits were for one class. These are kids at Virginia state schools and in the last 3 years. It could be that my friends' kids had a weird experience but the anecdotal data I have is that IB does not translate easily and kids don't get the same benefit as AP classes. The biggest complaint I hear when the kids are at college is that the classes don't translate for college credit.
We are zoned for an IB school, I have been talking to friends with kids at the HS. The universal feedback is that the IB English and History classes are really good. The IB Math and Science classes are lacking. If you have a child at all interested in STEM, pupil place to an AP school because the IB HL science and math classes are rarely offered due to not enough students being interested in them. The kids are taking their HL classes, the few that are trying for the diploma, in English, History, and Government. They take SL for Science and Math. Most of the kids at the school who are not going for the diploma are taking SL classes.
The program is mostly at schools where there are far fewer families planning on college and the parents don't care about IB or AP. The parents who are involved have their kids in the diploma track and see the program as a way to stand out. The parents of kids who will go to college but are not aiming for a top 50, never mind higher, don't really care one way or the other.
I would guess that more kids pupil place for AP then complete the IB diploma in any given year, which is ridiculous. Lewis had 4 kids complete the IB diploma last year. Four kids. There is no way you can justify the program benefiting the kids at Lewis. SLHS had 50, which is better but right about 10% of the class. How is that benefiting the students?
Anonymous
12/04/2025 13:39
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
I believe that FCPS uses its ability to offer AP and IB courses as a marketing tool, and fails to really do a critical evaluation as to what is actually better for the district.
My kids go to Marshall. Both take IB HL classes and neither went for the diploma. We would be happier with AP. Like the SLHS poster earlier, we didn't pupil place bc we wanted to keep them with their MS friends. And frankly, in the long run, it doesn't really matter. High-achieving kids will succeed in any environment and there is not a noticeable difference in college outcomes with the nearby FCPS HS.
My kids go to Marshall. Both take IB HL classes and neither went for the diploma. We would be happier with AP. Like the SLHS poster earlier, we didn't pupil place bc we wanted to keep them with their MS friends. And frankly, in the long run, it doesn't really matter. High-achieving kids will succeed in any environment and there is not a noticeable difference in college outcomes with the nearby FCPS HS.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 13:27
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
To be clear, I think you're not considering that IB HL courses consist of a pair of courses that are equivalent to two AP courses as a series in most cases. For example passing the IB English HL exam gives equivalent credit as passing both the AP Language and AP Lit exams. IB Math Analysis HL is equivalent to AP Precalculus AB and AP Calculus AB combined. IB History HL as APUSH and AP World, etc.
Still your point is stands, but it's not 3 IB college courses versus 6-10 AP college courses (actually IB allows a max of four HL).
Anonymous
12/04/2025 13:26
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:IB classes are harder to use for college credit for a series of reasons. Mainly, only IB HL classes count for college credit. Most kids will take HB SL classes. There are a certain number of IB HL classes required for the diploma, I believe that number is 3, and then the rest SL. The IB tests have to be taken in senior year to count for the diploma program. Not when kids complete the classes, but senior year. So any kid who is ahead in math has to wait at least one year to take the IB exam in math.
https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high/advanced-academics/international-baccalaureate)
The IB Career related program allows kids to take 2 IB courses and 2 career-related courses. This feels like a US based program to try and give a reason to keep IB since so few kids in the country actually complete the Diploma.
There are fewer IB class offerings then there are AP classes. I agree that AP has become ridiculous in its offerings and could easily be scaled back. AP is happy to add more classes and tests because that means more money for the program. This has been driven by parents who want their kids to have 18 AP classes, ok so an exaggeration there, to stand out for college. But the idea that kids can take different Ap Physics and Calculus classes, which reflect college availability, is a good thing.
https://www.ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/individuals-and-societies/history/
There is an IB history class while there are AP US History, AP World History, AP European History, and AP African American Studies. That means there are 4 history classes that students can earn college credit in to one for IB. And again, that is only if your school offers IB HL classes.
In Science, there are 5 different AP Science options, IB offers 4 but, and this is key, many schools don't have the kids with the interest to take IB HL in science. For Math, there are 2 IB Math classes and 1 IB Computer Science class and you have to have enough kids for the HL classes. And while I think AP Precalculus is ridiculous, AP Calculus, AP Statistics, AP Computer Science you have more options.
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
I am sorry, but AP works well for more kids then IB and it helps kids reduce college expenses or allows kids more opportunities in college. DE English and History classes can meet the needs for IB English and History if parents think that is better then AP, that is an option across the county.
It's a shame there has never been a serious effort in FCPS to look at whether the cost of IB at the eight high schools with IB exceeds the benefit.
They make a big deal out of the fact that they are conducting the first county-wide boundary review in decades, but I'd argue the need for scrutiny of IB in FCPS should have been a higher priority. Moreover, if they concluded replacing IB with AP across the county made sense, that would increase the enrollment at certain schools and reduce the need for boundary changes.
But FCPS specializes in doing things ass-backwards these days.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 10:29
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:IB is one of the reasons why our society has so many issues. So much more could be done with our school curriculum is IB we taken out completely. Less is more!
It teaches critical thinking. That is what is sorely missing in today’s society.
Other courses teach critical thinking at lower cost, which is something you’d realize if you engaged in some critical thinking of your own.
The small number of IB advocates tout IB because they like the IB buzzwords (“global citizens.” “life-long learners,” etc), see IB as a school within their generally low-performing schools, or know IB is what provides them with the option to transfer their kids to AP schools.
None of this justifies the higher cost to FCPS.
The PP who praises the "critical thinking" that is "taught" in IB needs to apply a little of it to this issue.
First, the problem/issue: FCPS schools have two advanced programs. One is AP and the other is IB. IB is more expensive. Question: Is the additional expense justified?
The first step in "critical thinking" is to gather information. I do not have time right now to gather all the information from credible sources, but here is what I have learned so far:
Background information:
IB proponents claim that it better prepares students for college and "teaches" critical thinking. The costs to FCPS are higher. (I do not have time to research this--but I do know that in the past this question was asked by SB members and the costs were significantly higher.)
Historically, IB was placed in some underachieving FCPS schools in the hopes that it would attract "better" students. Except for one stunning example, this has not worked. Instead, it has resulted in allowing students from underperforming schools to pupil place in order to be in an AP or IB program.
Information needed:
Proof that IB better prepares students for college. We know that historically, the IB classes do not get as much credit in college as AP. Some claim that is changing.
How much more does it cost? What is the cost per pupil taking IB classes? Cost per pupil of those achieving the IB diploma?
Has there been any survey done with parents of students in FCPS over which they prefer? It would appear that there are more students pupil placing out of IB schools into AP than vice versa--with one glaring exception.
Just some thoughts for how to approach this--since PP claims that "critical thinking" is the justification for IB.
From the little detail that I know, I would say that the IB proponents could use a little instruction in "critical thinking."
There’s a third advanced courses option, dual enrollment. For the students that are not as good academically, this is a far better option than IB. Sure, the classes are less rigorous than AP, but the students get guaranteed credit to the state schools. The kids that struggle with the IB diploma requirements, benefit more from taking dual enrollment.
Actually taking dual enrollment is better than IB for any student, and may top students end up taking advanced math at community colleges if the courses are not offered at their school
Anonymous
12/04/2025 09:37
Subject: Re:IB Costs Increasing
IB classes are harder to use for college credit for a series of reasons. Mainly, only IB HL classes count for college credit. Most kids will take HB SL classes. There are a certain number of IB HL classes required for the diploma, I believe that number is 3, and then the rest SL. The IB tests have to be taken in senior year to count for the diploma program. Not when kids complete the classes, but senior year. So any kid who is ahead in math has to wait at least one year to take the IB exam in math.
https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high/advanced-academics/international-baccalaureate)
The IB Career related program allows kids to take 2 IB courses and 2 career-related courses. This feels like a US based program to try and give a reason to keep IB since so few kids in the country actually complete the Diploma.
There are fewer IB class offerings then there are AP classes. I agree that AP has become ridiculous in its offerings and could easily be scaled back. AP is happy to add more classes and tests because that means more money for the program. This has been driven by parents who want their kids to have 18 AP classes, ok so an exaggeration there, to stand out for college. But the idea that kids can take different Ap Physics and Calculus classes, which reflect college availability, is a good thing.
https://www.ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/individuals-and-societies/history/
There is an IB history class while there are AP US History, AP World History, AP European History, and AP African American Studies. That means there are 4 history classes that students can earn college credit in to one for IB. And again, that is only if your school offers IB HL classes.
In Science, there are 5 different AP Science options, IB offers 4 but, and this is key, many schools don't have the kids with the interest to take IB HL in science. For Math, there are 2 IB Math classes and 1 IB Computer Science class and you have to have enough kids for the HL classes. And while I think AP Precalculus is ridiculous, AP Calculus, AP Statistics, AP Computer Science you have more options.
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
I am sorry, but AP works well for more kids then IB and it helps kids reduce college expenses or allows kids more opportunities in college. DE English and History classes can meet the needs for IB English and History if parents think that is better then AP, that is an option across the county.
https://www.fcps.edu/academics/high/advanced-academics/international-baccalaureate)
The IB Career related program allows kids to take 2 IB courses and 2 career-related courses. This feels like a US based program to try and give a reason to keep IB since so few kids in the country actually complete the Diploma.
There are fewer IB class offerings then there are AP classes. I agree that AP has become ridiculous in its offerings and could easily be scaled back. AP is happy to add more classes and tests because that means more money for the program. This has been driven by parents who want their kids to have 18 AP classes, ok so an exaggeration there, to stand out for college. But the idea that kids can take different Ap Physics and Calculus classes, which reflect college availability, is a good thing.
https://www.ibo.org/programmes/diploma-programme/curriculum/individuals-and-societies/history/
There is an IB history class while there are AP US History, AP World History, AP European History, and AP African American Studies. That means there are 4 history classes that students can earn college credit in to one for IB. And again, that is only if your school offers IB HL classes.
In Science, there are 5 different AP Science options, IB offers 4 but, and this is key, many schools don't have the kids with the interest to take IB HL in science. For Math, there are 2 IB Math classes and 1 IB Computer Science class and you have to have enough kids for the HL classes. And while I think AP Precalculus is ridiculous, AP Calculus, AP Statistics, AP Computer Science you have more options.
You have kids with 3 IBHL classes, maybe, on their HS transcript for college credit, and kids with 6-10 AP classes for college credit. You tell me which one is a better option for kids attending college? AP students learn how to write, they take English classes before the AP classes, just like the IB kids, and learn how to write and think about text. They do perfectly well in college. And they can either save money by needing one year less of college or open up space for a second major or more electives that they enjoy or for studying overseas and not worrying about jamming in required classes.
I am sorry, but AP works well for more kids then IB and it helps kids reduce college expenses or allows kids more opportunities in college. DE English and History classes can meet the needs for IB English and History if parents think that is better then AP, that is an option across the county.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 09:36
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:The only way IB ever would have taken off in FCPS would have been if they’d eliminated AP at the remaining schools. Otherwise the strength of peer groups always trumps programming.
IB may teach critical thinking but IB proponents falsely imply nothing else does, and they refuse to scrutinize the costs.
Because IB does not actually teach critical thinking.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 09:13
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
The only way IB ever would have taken off in FCPS would have been if they’d eliminated AP at the remaining schools. Otherwise the strength of peer groups always trumps programming.
IB may teach critical thinking but IB proponents falsely imply nothing else does, and they refuse to scrutinize the costs.
IB may teach critical thinking but IB proponents falsely imply nothing else does, and they refuse to scrutinize the costs.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 08:50
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:IB is one of the reasons why our society has so many issues. So much more could be done with our school curriculum is IB we taken out completely. Less is more!
It teaches critical thinking. That is what is sorely missing in today’s society.
Other courses teach critical thinking at lower cost, which is something you’d realize if you engaged in some critical thinking of your own.
The small number of IB advocates tout IB because they like the IB buzzwords (“global citizens.” “life-long learners,” etc), see IB as a school within their generally low-performing schools, or know IB is what provides them with the option to transfer their kids to AP schools.
None of this justifies the higher cost to FCPS.
The PP who praises the "critical thinking" that is "taught" in IB needs to apply a little of it to this issue.
First, the problem/issue: FCPS schools have two advanced programs. One is AP and the other is IB. IB is more expensive. Question: Is the additional expense justified?
The first step in "critical thinking" is to gather information. I do not have time right now to gather all the information from credible sources, but here is what I have learned so far:
Background information:
IB proponents claim that it better prepares students for college and "teaches" critical thinking. The costs to FCPS are higher. (I do not have time to research this--but I do know that in the past this question was asked by SB members and the costs were significantly higher.)
Historically, IB was placed in some underachieving FCPS schools in the hopes that it would attract "better" students. Except for one stunning example, this has not worked. Instead, it has resulted in allowing students from underperforming schools to pupil place in order to be in an AP or IB program.
Information needed:
Proof that IB better prepares students for college. We know that historically, the IB classes do not get as much credit in college as AP. Some claim that is changing.
How much more does it cost? What is the cost per pupil taking IB classes? Cost per pupil of those achieving the IB diploma?
Has there been any survey done with parents of students in FCPS over which they prefer? It would appear that there are more students pupil placing out of IB schools into AP than vice versa--with one glaring exception.
Just some thoughts for how to approach this--since PP claims that "critical thinking" is the justification for IB.
From the little detail that I know, I would say that the IB proponents could use a little instruction in "critical thinking."
Anonymous
12/04/2025 08:03
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:IB is one of the reasons why our society has so many issues. So much more could be done with our school curriculum is IB we taken out completely. Less is more!
It teaches critical thinking. That is what is sorely missing in today’s society.
Other courses teach critical thinking at lower cost, which is something you’d realize if you engaged in some critical thinking of your own.
The small number of IB advocates tout IB because they like the IB buzzwords (“global citizens.” “life-long learners,” etc), see IB as a school within their generally low-performing schools, or know IB is what provides them with the option to transfer their kids to AP schools.
None of this justifies the higher cost to FCPS.
I am sorry but as a parent who prefers AP for their kid, I would prefer he stay at SLHS and take AP classes then having to look to pupil place out. We are opting in to the new Western High School for the AP and the new program options. We would have looked at pupil placing to Oakton for AP and Japanese. The small percentage of the population that loves IB helped to prevent AP from being added for the last 25 or so years that parents have been asking for. I would guess that most of the families are indifferent to AP/IB. The families who want AP enough leave the school through pupil placing because they are not heard and don't want IB.
I would prefer my kid stay at his base school with his friends and take the same classes offered throughout the county. I would prefer that they offer AP and IB, allow the kids who want IB to take those classes but let the kids who want AP take AP. The kids who take only IBSL classes might continue to do that, maybe they would take AP. But the kids who want harder math and science options would have those options in AP. Heck, maybe they would take IB English or history because I suspect that the IB classes in the humanities are different then the AP versions and the extra writing might be worth it. But IB math and science is no where near as rigerous as the harder AP math and science classes and the kids interested in STEM want those classes.
Anonymous
12/04/2025 07:19
Subject: IB Costs Increasing
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:IB is one of the reasons why our society has so many issues. So much more could be done with our school curriculum is IB we taken out completely. Less is more!
It teaches critical thinking. That is what is sorely missing in today’s society.
Other courses teach critical thinking at lower cost, which is something you’d realize if you engaged in some critical thinking of your own.
The small number of IB advocates tout IB because they like the IB buzzwords (“global citizens.” “life-long learners,” etc), see IB as a school within their generally low-performing schools, or know IB is what provides them with the option to transfer their kids to AP schools.
None of this justifies the higher cost to FCPS.