Law school applications have soared since 2023. It is getting more popular every year, just as it did the last time we had a large economic turndown. It is a solid money making path when the job market stinks for new grads.

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Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

I'm curious about other career paths. I have a pre-law kid who is eyeing Big Law only due to the money but I think it's a bad fit for her. I'm wondering about, instead, taking a job in a company or maybe Wall Street rather than a law fim. Is the lifestyle there appreciably different?

So she wouldn’t be taking those other jobs or the money? Ok . . .

A banker or PE principal in their 40s works less than a big law partner and they make more given comparable talent. They also didn’t waste three years of their 20s in school. There are plenty of FAANG employees in their 30s sitting on eight figures due to RSUs, mega backdoor Roth, and other benefits they gain with 50 hour work weeks and specialized skills.

Uh huh. Still doesn't answer the question.

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Anonymous wrote:There have always been smart people who gravitated to tech or finance or consulting or law or medicine or something else, just like today.

It was not true before, nor is it now, that "most of the smart kids" all chose the same career path.

While true, some paths have lost their shine, e.g. medical school especially.

med school had a 35% overall acceptance rate to US MD programs(the only programs worth doing) when I applied later 90s. Now it is 37-38%. in between those years it was temporarily 45%. There is no truth to med school as a desired career losing its shine.

Med school acceptance rates are more like around 5%, aren't they, even for the lower ranked MD programs? Not sure where you're getting your stats.

DP, doctor.. Look at AMCAS which has data for all US med schools. For US applicants to US MD programs, 37-40% of all applicants have gotten accepted to at least one school the past 3 cycles. The even have data broken down by GPA and MCAT, for all applicants. DCUM makes you think it is impossible. It is not. And it appears to be around the same as when I applied in 98.

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Anonymous wrote:There have always been smart people who gravitated to tech or finance or consulting or law or medicine or something else, just like today.

It was not true before, nor is it now, that "most of the smart kids" all chose the same career path.

While true, some paths have lost their shine, e.g. medical school especially.

med school had a 35% overall acceptance rate to US MD programs(the only programs worth doing) when I applied later 90s. Now it is 37-38%. in between those years it was temporarily 45%. There is no truth to med school as a desired career losing its shine.

Med school acceptance rates are more like around 5%, aren't they, even for the lower ranked MD programs? Not sure where you're getting your stats.

pp is referring to the overall rate - the percentage of applicants who are accepted to at least one school - not the rate of acceptance to an individual school. That rate is indeed around 40%

My career was law school > clerk > big law > in house at tech megacorp > teaching/writing.

It's been a great career. Big law was the worst of it - and I actually enjoyed that. And it paid off all my loans. It's also a career that required graduated top in class from top schools. This is a profession who cares about your CV.

Teaching has been incredible for work-life and my 4 kids' college tuition bills has been covered, which is a pretty great perk.

Many lawyers I know aren't happy, But they are risk-averse people who float along and allow themselves to be unhappy in the first place. They didn't have a better idea and end up in law school. Then they make good money in their 20s and spend themselves into a marriage and lifestyle that requires that income. Hard to pivot away. It's too bad.

The lawyers I know in tech loved those jobs.I also know people who do things like argue in front of the supreme court. These people adore their jobs. But it's a tall mountain. People I know who stuck with govt/city jobs for initial lower ADA pay also have super interesting careers. Although they face higher personal risk than I think a lot of the public realizes. Having your name in the paper as an attorney is not without risks.

I'm excited about AI. I think it will remove a lot of the worst parts of law work, although it will reduce the need for the vast number of lawyers who are churned out every year.

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Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

Only true if you get into T14. Otherwise you won’t even get an interview at most biglaw firms.

I can’t necessarily refute but I can anecdote and it seems that decent law schools in good legal markets are also strong feeders to BigLaw.

Know a girl at Fordham with offers from Latham and another big firm and she isn’t top of the class or law review or whatever. She says many in her class are also getting good offers.

Now, I doubt she would have many options if she wanted to go to SV, but it seems recruiting is strong in NYC.

The data is out there in spades. Don’t go to Fordham to enter big law unless you think sub 50% odds are okay. If it doesn’t pan out you’ve wasted your youth and a ton of tuition dollars. Bad luck, roll again!

Well, OK…but the point is it isn’t a terrible strategy if you can’t get admission to a T14, right? It’s definitely not a zero chance like PP indicated.

Maybe a better example is an in state person going to UGA and accepting they will just work for BigLaw in Atlanta. You pay in state rates and it’s top 25.

BigLaw exists in every major city…it’s just you have BiggestLaw vs just BigLaw.

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Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

A law degree closes doors outside of law. Any business front office role you get with a JD could’ve been much more easily obtained before committing three years to rote study.

Early Retired Biglaw partner here and I agree 100 percent. In my experience, the young lawyers starting out making the big money in Biglaw earn every penny of it and by and large are miserable, and the large majority of them who don’t end up on partner track stress out to the nth degree over what to do next and how to even come close to matching their Biglaw
salaries. And they do find many doors have closed firmly behind them. Most eventually do land on their feet and end up happy but it’s rarely easy and without scars financially and to their egos. They’re not used to failing and, yes, most Biglaw associates do fail.

I'm curious about other career paths. I have a pre-law kid who is eyeing Big Law only due to the money but I think it's a bad fit for her. I'm wondering about, instead, taking a job in a company or maybe Wall Street rather than a law fim. Is the lifestyle there appreciably different?

So she wouldn’t be taking those other jobs or the money? Ok . . .

A banker or PE principal in their 40s works less than a big law partner and they make more given comparable talent. They also didn’t waste three years of their 20s in school. There are plenty of FAANG employees in their 30s sitting on eight figures due to RSUs, mega backdoor Roth, and other benefits they gain with 50 hour work weeks and specialized skills.

Sorry; I wasn't at all clear with my question. She wants to go to law school and would probably do corporate or financial type law. I'm wondering about being a LAWYER in a corporation (Google or John Deere or whatever) or a LAWYER on wall street (for a bank). I assume the latter has crazy long hours to match the culture of the bankers, but I'm wondering if money and culture are different from Big Law? And in a non bank corporation (e.g., John Deere just because that's the first that came to mind), I assume hours are long but more normalish? Pay is lower but still good? I'm just guessing here. Anyone with actual knowledge?

Those are called "in house counsel" roles. Generally you will need 2-6 years of Big Law associate experience to be competitive for an in house role, and they are tough to snag because the work/life balance is better (on average). Big law firms are the training ground for corporate lawyers, you have no skills directly out of law school. A prestigious company like Google will hire in house counsel from prestigious law firms. You will be competing with every other Big Law associate that is desperate to get out, so networking and luck plays a big part.

For the general public reading: You can't just say that you want to go into BigLaw and expect to be able to do it bc you want to. You generally have to come from a highly ranked law school or be the top of your class somewhere. To get into a highly ranked law school, you tylically have to score very high on the LSAT. Scoring very high on the LSAT is not as common or as easy as DCUM makes it sound. Rainmaking - Many people's personalities are not synonymous with rainmaking. Take, for example, bookish people who go into law
thinking it's academically interesting. Are they suddenly going to turn into salespeople, selling themselves and
the firm, once they get a job? Do you have personality or connections, or are you an introvert who will grind away the hours for the firm, making others wealthy?

Yes

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Anonymous wrote:There have always been smart people who gravitated to tech or finance or consulting or law or medicine or something else, just like today.

It was not true before, nor is it now, that "most of the smart kids" all chose the same career path.

While true, some paths have lost their shine, e.g. medical school especially.

med school had a 35% overall acceptance rate to US MD programs(the only programs worth doing) when I applied later 90s. Now it is 37-38%. in between those years it was temporarily 45%. There is no truth to med school as a desired career losing its shine.

Med school acceptance rates are more like around 5%, aren't they, even for the lower ranked MD programs? Not sure where you're getting your stats.

Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

He’s in school but you’ve already got him making a salary that’s among the top 10% of lawyers in his first year. A year where he knows next to nothing. He might find that he loves being in the courthouse, negotiating for people in trouble and decides to be a public defender.

Anonymous wrote:No. Law is still much more interesting.

Real estate law is boring. Probate law is tedious. Forget trying to have a general law office, you won’t be able to pay your rent. Estate planning is boring.

Some of the lower paid jobs are satisfying and interesting. Working for the government as a prosecutor or defense attorney, immigration attorney, working in social services.

Most lawyers don’t make a ton of money no matter what people here claim. The top 1% make a very high salary. The average salary is about $100k.

Law is such a different skill set than tech, I think a student needs to know their strengths.

Big law wife here. DH busted his ass and we sacrificed early on, but it has paid huge dividends. There was no shortcut and I’m extremely proud of how hard he has worked to provide for our family.

Anonymous wrote:Big law lawyer here of 10+ years. I would never recommend this path to my children. Choose finance or medicine or tech over law every single time and it’s not a close call. Far fewer doctors bankers and product managers say all their sacrifices weren’t worth it. Fewer divorces and alcoholics too.

physician here. have many physician friends. almost no one wants their kids to follow their footsteps.

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Anonymous wrote:I did well in biglaw. Son is attending now. Entering Law, is, still the best upward mobility vehicle I know of aside from med school, which takes much longer. After clerking, he'll enter DC or New York firms making $246K or better. Yes, he knows how mindboggling boring it can be. He's heard it from me and all of my friends. Itis what it is. But it will get him set financially for life and after being an associate, he can find a better path should he want it. There are many other things that law graduates can do. Many

Only true if you get into T14. Otherwise you won’t even get an interview at most biglaw firms.

True yet T14 is pretty easy to get from yop undergrad.
T14 is the most common destination for law from kids' ivy even averageish 3.8/Lsat 169 kids get into lower T14. Big5 is what the 3.9/171+ chase (Y, H, S, Penn, Chicago). Majority use ED to one of the T14, ivy advises it for most

This is just not true. A 169 on the LSAT makes you a long shot for a T14 regardless of where you go to college. Law schools don’t practice “holistic” admissions the way undergraduate schools do and place a great deal of emphasis on the LSAT — more than anything else. Going to a top undergrad doesn’t get you a pass, especially with a 3.8 GPA. Just google the numbers for the schools. They’re plain to see.

My kid's T10 non ivy has numbers and matriculation lists by GPA and LSAT. T14 definitely happens pretty regularly for the 168-170 group. That is an average LSAT at the school and the average kids get in to T14 there.