Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. Repeating for the people who think they are discovering something novel. The US is a terrible place to be poor but ok if you are rich (though that is getting to be debatable). Europe is a good place to be if you are middle income or poor. The rich try to shelter.

Europe still sucks to be poor, it’s just that more people are poor so you don’t feel as bad because everyone else is in the same boat. And it’s harder to become not poor. Reduced class mobility, more entrenched aristocratic wealth over there. They tax labor like crazy but barely touch capital generated income.

Wrong. You can get sick and not become homeless or die. You can retire! Your kids can go to university and not have to put 50% of their paycheck into repaying their debt. You can still have days off. Their lower class lifestyle is a middle class lifestyle here without the constant undercurrent of terror that medical debt will take you down or your kids will get shot at school.

Wild you think everyone in the US is just one medical crisis away from homelessness and doesn’t take vacation. This mantra is often repeated and people like you believe it. It’s funny when my European friends find out how much vacation I get and my friends too (somewhere between 4-6 weeks) because it really disappoints them.

How would our country be so powerful and wealthy if no one ever took vacation and getting sick meant you became homeless? That doesn’t make any sense.

Anonymous wrote:I love how DCUM always looks to Western Europe as somehow representative of all Europe. It’s like everything east of Berlin doesn’t exist or isn’t worthy of consideration.

OP — why do say Europe in the subject but wax on only about Western Europe?

What's funny about that is half of Italy, Sweden, and Austria are east of Berlin. Not to mention the other dozen plus countries people usually think of.

Anonymous wrote:Easy to tell 90% of the posters on this thread have never lived in Europe and get their entire perspective of life in Europe from a tik tok clip showing progressive liberal people in hip neighborhoods in Paris or Berlin.

As someone who's actually lived in Europe long enough and still spends plenty of time in Europe in various countries, it's indisputable that incomes are higher - substantially higher - in the United States. Average income in the entire UK is lower than the average income in Mississippi, the poorest state in the US. At the same time cost of living in the popular key European cities where the better jobs are isn't necessarily low either. Anyone looked at the cost of housing in London (or most of Britain in general?). Or Paris? Very expensive. Pretty much only rich people and poor people in subsidized housing live in most central European capital cities. Middle class and everyday people live in suburbs and outer neighborhoods, with long commutes on public transportation. Many Europeans somehow end up coming to the US for work and completely fall in love with the ease of suburban American life. And there's no shortage of poor neighborhoods in Europe too, the banlieues of Paris, the housing estates of Britain, the crowded tenements of migrants living off generous doles that is causing enormous cultural strife across Europe. And there's small dying towns and villages (speaking to the person complaining about small town America).

Europe does have a large enough affluent upper middle class but most Europeans are not in this category. And there's widespread fears across Western Europe over economic insecurity and decline in standards of living and mass migration. Few people are taking things for granted or thinking the future is rosy.

+100000

It’s like the women on Reddit who praise European parental leaves but don’t understand it’s $250-300 a week, the woman likely had finances independent of her partner/husband (meaning she’d have $0 of support) and there is the expectation the woman spends significant time away from work to watch a young child and also expected to return.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. Repeating for the people who think they are discovering something novel. The US is a terrible place to be poor but ok if you are rich (though that is getting to be debatable). Europe is a good place to be if you are middle income or poor. The rich try to shelter.

Europe still sucks to be poor, it’s just that more people are poor so you don’t feel as bad because everyone else is in the same boat. And it’s harder to become not poor. Reduced class mobility, more entrenched aristocratic wealth over there. They tax labor like crazy but barely touch capital generated income.

Good job making it crystal clear that you don't have any idea what you're talking about, and that you're clearly not from Europe. Which incidentally has over 50 countries, making it a bit hard to generalize.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. Repeating for the people who think they are discovering something novel. The US is a terrible place to be poor but ok if you are rich (though that is getting to be debatable). Europe is a good place to be if you are middle income or poor. The rich try to shelter.

Europe still sucks to be poor, it’s just that more people are poor so you don’t feel as bad because everyone else is in the same boat. And it’s harder to become not poor. Reduced class mobility, more entrenched aristocratic wealth over there. They tax labor like crazy but barely touch capital generated income.

Wrong. You can get sick and not become homeless or die. You can retire! Your kids can go to university and not have to put 50% of their paycheck into repaying their debt. You can still have days off. Their lower class lifestyle is a middle class lifestyle here without the constant undercurrent of terror that medical debt will take you down or your kids will get shot at school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flip side, even cashiers can have a nice life.

They have smaller houses, smaller cars, excellent weather compare to most of US. Cheap vacations across many countries and settings.

They don’t worry about being laid off at 50 and having to become a cashier who makes so little she is eligible for snap benefits.

Rewarding mediocrity doesn’t lead to prosperity in the long term. To an extent, an effective government needs to light a fire under people’s asses to achieve things in life. Coddling and enablement makes everyone poorer eventually

What is mediocrity? Public servants such as a teacher, fire fighter, service member or police officer? How about line men at the local energy company or a plumber or nurse. Hell, most Americans could be “mediocre” but they live a good life. Not everyone can or wants to be in the top 10%. The majority of Americans work to live, not live to work.

do you know any linemen, teachers, postal workers police officers? there counterparts in the rest of the developing world have a much higher standard of living and most of these working class popped in etc USA are no longer making good incomes. The bottom 50% of Americans are all incapable of living within their means- as in they do not earn enough to put a roof over there heads and food in their bellies and the lights one, they choose to forego a bill every month and that ends up costing them debt so they have to service debt. look at a sociology textbook- its all there. plumbers and electricians who own their own business make a good living as do contractors but not in any way comparable to their European counterparts.

Many blue collar workers were middle class — had cottages on a lake, travelled abroad every few years to visit family, had long stretch off in the summer if they worked in a factory,— but that’s gone now. Only people with degrees (incl. many who don’t use them) or a few tradespeople (like plumbers) can afford to do these things. Heck, they can’t go to Disney without taking a personal loan, ans Disney was supposed to be somewhere that the middle class could afford. Median incomes are barely scraping by these days. Worse, the middle class arent even considered hard-working by the likes of most DCUMers.

I love how DCUM always looks to Western Europe as somehow representative of all Europe. It’s like everything east of Berlin doesn’t exist or isn’t worthy of consideration.

OP — why do say Europe in the subject but wax on only about Western Europe?

sorry meant developed

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Flip side, even cashiers can have a nice life.

They have smaller houses, smaller cars, excellent weather compare to most of US. Cheap vacations across many countries and settings.

They don’t worry about being laid off at 50 and having to become a cashier who makes so little she is eligible for snap benefits.

Rewarding mediocrity doesn’t lead to prosperity in the long term. To an extent, an effective government needs to light a fire under people’s asses to achieve things in life. Coddling and enablement makes everyone poorer eventually

What is mediocrity? Public servants such as a teacher, fire fighter, service member or police officer? How about line men at the local energy company or a plumber or nurse. Hell, most Americans could be “mediocre” but they live a good life. Not everyone can or wants to be in the top 10%. The majority of Americans work to live, not live to work.

do you know any linemen, teachers, postal workers police officers? there counterparts in the rest of the developing world have a much higher standard of living and most of these working class popped in etc USA are no longer making good incomes. The bottom 50% of Americans are all incapable of living within their means- as in they do not earn enough to put a roof over there heads and food in their bellies and the lights one, they choose to forego a bill every month and that ends up costing them debt so they have to service debt. look at a sociology textbook- its all there. plumbers and electricians who own their own business make a good living as do contractors but not in any way comparable to their European counterparts.

actually- I think that is what it comes down to, you cannot compare the USA to the EU countries, Japan etc b/c the functions of government and expectations of citizenry are SOOO different. Our government isn't responsible for the welfare of american citizens living here, it is responsible for our defense and to protect our assets abroad and our trade overseas. It's not really responsible for our quality of life. Government in France is held responsible for everything basically- cradle to grave as they say.

It's just a different set of expectations. there is no denying that the US economy is the most robust in the world. the EU nations are barely holding on and the UK is poor country for those who are working class . I have wealthy relatives so they buy private health insurance etc .. by wealthy I mean they are 2nd gen asians with professional parents who are professionals themselves or actually wealthy as in have a lot of capital and large businesses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You obviously feel strongly about what you wrote. Your comment is practically hysterical. Despite your claims, American women are having more babies than Europeans. It’s not a tiny wealthy minority.

My guess is you live in a blue urban liberal bubble and don’t get out there often. Your beliefs are shaped by wealthy liberals and the poor minorities living around you.

I'm not PP, but are you disputing that the U.S. has the highest infant mortality rate in the developed world?

I think if you remove one minority group with terrible health, high obesity rates, low education and high out of wedlock births then the situation in America looks very different.
It’s tragic but simply doesn’t apply to your average white woman who graduated college and got married before having kids.

What you fail to understand is that Europe also has poor immigrants. Chile has poor people. There are minority groups in Europe with terrible health and low education and out of wedlock births — as you so delicately put it.

And yet, the United States is the only developed country with a maternal and infant mortality rate that Latvia would be ashamed of.

There is no denying that the United States has horrible outcomes for women and babies. But sure keep putting your head in the sand.

The CIA estimates the US' infant mortality rate at a 5.1 per 1000 vs Latvia's 4.7. Meanwhile Afghanistan is a 101.3. You're stretching.

Stop and think about what you’re saying:

You’re celebrating because the US has better health outcomes than Afghanistan! And you’re accepting that the United States is worse than Latvia. But maybe if we work hard we can finally meet Latvia’s numbers.

THAT is winning?

I'm suggesting that you're pretending the US is so awful when it's very slightly worse than major European countries, which largely have socialized medicine. The US doesn't have horrible outcomes, it has slightly worse outcomes, largely due to a single population group that has an outsized impact on the numbers.

Hold up. The US is not slightly worse than major European countries. The US is slightly worse than one of the poorest countries in the Europe — Latvia.

The US has completely fallen behind major European countries like the UK, Germany and France. And all of those countries have poor African migrants, war refugees and asylum seekers included in their data.

Germany 3.1, 3.1, and UK 3.8. The US has all of those people too. Keep on stretching.

oh no- the Us does NOT deal with the same migrant crisis issues as Germany, France, Italy b/c all of these governments actually bear the burdens of educating, feeding, medicating, housing both the totality of their citizens AND the migrants. White Americans are in such a bubble- ask immigrants from Asia who have first cousins or siblings who live and work in various EU countries, Australia and canada and you'll find out the real story. the US has a lot of money but we spend on things other than quality of life for our workers/citizens- dominos pizza fixes our potholes!! Germany fixes the roads in Greece and Sicily. the purpose and function of government in the USA and other developing nations is just different so its difficult to compare b/c American citizens have to earn a lot to have a really good life but then if you earn a lot and live in a Nigeria or Ghana or India - your life will be much better than in the USA. the USA government's function is different than the function of the French or Finnish government.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have relatives in both northern and Southern Europe and none of them are complaining about their standard of living, even the ones whose incomes your would consider extremely low.

If you measure success or a good standard of living by large homes, large cars, and large portion sizes when eating out, then yes, Europeans are "poorer." But most Europeans don't have 4-5 bedroom houses filled with endless stuff from Costco and Target "runs" or big-ass fuel-guzzling cars. They take (much) longer vacations, can retire earlier in some countries, don't go into debt for higher education, and don't have to declare bankruptcy due to medical debt. They all take vacations, even those with lower incomes, and have full lives--except with a lot less of the store-bought crap that Americans spend their lives working for.

[b]Living in a nice, large home and driving a large, comfortable car IS something most people want, including Europeans. They buy the nicest home they can, just like we do.

sounds like you think all Americans care about is buying stuff at Target, which is so sad. It’s a big country out there and you should get out there and discover it.

I’m an American and I hate having huge cars. It’s something that’s a necessity to live in the US and is an expensive externality that I do not want.

Unfortunately, walkable neighborhoods and adequate public transportation are a pipe dream. I HATE having to spend tens of thousands of stupid cats simply because there’s no other way to transport kids.

I think it depends on where you live in europe- it's a continent with separate countries. like Swiss women who are UMC do stay home with the kids and their partners make enough money for them to do so an they are all married b/c its a conservative country. Swedish people also have giant people movers, same with germans and the DCUM equivelants- professionals with kids have single family homes or large townhomes. Uk people buy a lot of stuff and have cramped homes but they live on an island, people living in Malmo are not living with overflowing closets. also in most euro cultures outside of the Dach group, people look down on women who don't have careers and a woman will only refrain from working her own career if she was ill or incapacitated or Muslim.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sigh. Repeating for the people who think they are discovering something novel. The US is a terrible place to be poor but ok if you are rich (though that is getting to be debatable). Europe is a good place to be if you are middle income or poor. The rich try to shelter.

Europe still sucks to be poor, it’s just that more people are poor so you don’t feel as bad because everyone else is in the same boat. And it’s harder to become not poor. Reduced class mobility, more entrenched aristocratic wealth over there. They tax labor like crazy but barely touch capital generated income.

Estonia has more social mobility than the US.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/social-mobility-by-country

Some European countries are lower than the US, but most are well above it.

I have a very difficult time believing social mobility in the UK is at or more than in the US - at least socially, once you are working class (or whatever) You are ALWAYS that class.

but you can still have a cute 3 bedroom flat/5 bed attached home on Hampstead heath/kingston/croydon on a train line 15 minutes from one of the main hubs (Waterloo, etc) a car per driver & bursting closets stuffed full of garbage from Oliver bonas just like your american counterparts! but you can also jet off to morocco for the weekend.

Im Pakistani and all my family who lived in London now live in single family homes, some listed- or in attached homes in very cute market towns. there lives aren't really all that different down in Surrey than ours here. And these people were immigrants in the 1970s, fathers were sleeping 5 to a room or struggling through med school. they don't go to Winchester, eaton etc for school but they do go to Cambridge, Oxford, LSE, SOAS on fairly regular basis just like our pre Partition grandfathers did. id say that shows social mobility- our grandparents generation lost everything and our generation has thrived b/c of our parents hard work and this is true in the UK, Norway, USA, Canada and Australia. All these places have social mobility but in the US it was easier and now it is harder- and life has become more expensive in the US than all the rest of these places. people used to prefer moving to the US but now don't b/c you can go from nothing to owning property and send your kids to the best institutions within a decade and that is increasingly out of reach for Americans unless you move to the boonies.

I would rather make less money and not have to worry that a sudden chronic illness could cause me to lose my job, health insurance and eventually my home. That’s the American Dream/nightmare right there for most people! Unless you have generational wealth or get very lucky most do not have a safety net such that a serious illness wouldn’t destroy both their and their families’ financial stability. Never mind the daily fear that someone you love will be caught up in a mindless random shooting by some deranged white incel…

Easy to tell 90% of the posters on this thread have never lived in Europe and get their entire perspective of life in Europe from a tik tok clip showing progressive liberal people in hip neighborhoods in Paris or Berlin.

As someone who's actually lived in Europe long enough and still spends plenty of time in Europe in various countries, it's indisputable that incomes are higher - substantially higher - in the United States. Average income in the entire UK is lower than the average income in Mississippi, the poorest state in the US. At the same time cost of living in the popular key European cities where the better jobs are isn't necessarily low either. Anyone looked at the cost of housing in London (or most of Britain in general?). Or Paris? Very expensive. Pretty much only rich people and poor people in subsidized housing live in most central European capital cities. Middle class and everyday people live in suburbs and outer neighborhoods, with long commutes on public transportation. Many Europeans somehow end up coming to the US for work and completely fall in love with the ease of suburban American life. And there's no shortage of poor neighborhoods in Europe too, the banlieues of Paris, the housing estates of Britain, the crowded tenements of migrants living off generous doles that is causing enormous cultural strife across Europe. And there's small dying towns and villages (speaking to the person complaining about small town America).

Europe does have a large enough affluent upper middle class but most Europeans are not in this category. And there's widespread fears across Western Europe over economic insecurity and decline in standards of living and mass migration. Few people are taking things for granted or thinking the future is rosy.