Anonymous
08/03/2025 18:00
Subject: Re:What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:This paper is an interesting take on the HYPSM question, including the sub question of how to think about the HYPSM players themselves.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-024-03547-8#Sec19
The authors wanted to see where “ extreme winners” (my summary term, not theirs…think presidents, Supreme Court justices, Nobel Prize winners, F500 CEO’s, Pulitzer Prize winners, MacArthur fellows) went to school. Using data on ~ 26,000 people who have achieved remarkable across disparate fields, they find that a very small group of elite colleges have produced a huge share of these top achievers. Within that set of elite schools, Harvard seem to have a disproportionate footprint. For example, about one out of every six “extraordinary Americans” in their list went to Harvard alone.
Of course, the strong association between these schools and extraordinary outcomes does not establish causation (for example, it is possible that these individuals would have achieved extraordinarily regardless of the school they attended). And if there is causation, the precise mechanism is hard to pin down with respect to education effects vs network effects vs a possible “treatment effect that increases one’s ambitions or expectations ” by attending Harvard. But the net effect, especially for Harvard, is hard to ignore.
One note: the authors do the analysis using institutional attendance, not only undergraduate. My read of the paper is that while undergraduate attendance at elite schools is highly represented among top achievers, graduate education at these institutions plays an even more prominent role. So, even if you didn’t win the lottery for Harvard undergrad, there’s always an opportunity to go there for graduate school, that that may be even more of a driver of outcome.
This is a great study that we’ve talked about a lot here. Agree with your take. The grad school part is key—more of the people they identified from elite schools went there for grad school than undergrad. It’s also noteworthy that the elite school over representation is greater for academic pursuits than professional ones. Much more important to attend one of the elite schools if you want to end up in academia.
Also, while I agree the Harvard effect is strong, it’s tough to see whether there is any other standout impact amongst these elite schools. I suspect not.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 17:35
Subject: Re:What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
This paper is an interesting take on the HYPSM question, including the sub question of how to think about the HYPSM players themselves.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-024-03547-8#Sec19
The authors wanted to see where “ extreme winners” (my summary term, not theirs…think presidents, Supreme Court justices, Nobel Prize winners, F500 CEO’s, Pulitzer Prize winners, MacArthur fellows) went to school. Using data on ~ 26,000 people who have achieved remarkable across disparate fields, they find that a very small group of elite colleges have produced a huge share of these top achievers. Within that set of elite schools, Harvard seem to have a disproportionate footprint. For example, about one out of every six “extraordinary Americans” in their list went to Harvard alone.
Of course, the strong association between these schools and extraordinary outcomes does not establish causation (for example, it is possible that these individuals would have achieved extraordinarily regardless of the school they attended). And if there is causation, the precise mechanism is hard to pin down with respect to education effects vs network effects vs a possible “treatment effect that increases one’s ambitions or expectations ” by attending Harvard. But the net effect, especially for Harvard, is hard to ignore.
One note: the authors do the analysis using institutional attendance, not only undergraduate. My read of the paper is that while undergraduate attendance at elite schools is highly represented among top achievers, graduate education at these institutions plays an even more prominent role. So, even if you didn’t win the lottery for Harvard undergrad, there’s always an opportunity to go there for graduate school, that that may be even more of a driver of outcome.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-024-03547-8#Sec19
The authors wanted to see where “ extreme winners” (my summary term, not theirs…think presidents, Supreme Court justices, Nobel Prize winners, F500 CEO’s, Pulitzer Prize winners, MacArthur fellows) went to school. Using data on ~ 26,000 people who have achieved remarkable across disparate fields, they find that a very small group of elite colleges have produced a huge share of these top achievers. Within that set of elite schools, Harvard seem to have a disproportionate footprint. For example, about one out of every six “extraordinary Americans” in their list went to Harvard alone.
Of course, the strong association between these schools and extraordinary outcomes does not establish causation (for example, it is possible that these individuals would have achieved extraordinarily regardless of the school they attended). And if there is causation, the precise mechanism is hard to pin down with respect to education effects vs network effects vs a possible “treatment effect that increases one’s ambitions or expectations ” by attending Harvard. But the net effect, especially for Harvard, is hard to ignore.
One note: the authors do the analysis using institutional attendance, not only undergraduate. My read of the paper is that while undergraduate attendance at elite schools is highly represented among top achievers, graduate education at these institutions plays an even more prominent role. So, even if you didn’t win the lottery for Harvard undergrad, there’s always an opportunity to go there for graduate school, that that may be even more of a driver of outcome.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 17:29
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
The data behind this is at least 15 years old. Much has changed since then.
And SLACs have so few students that a handful of private equity or hedge fund families would completely distort averages. This is not a useful list for 2025. Especially since US NEWS changed their algorithm and now really value Pell Grant students and FGLI so on in their rankings. No doubt that has distorted and altered acceptances in recent years. For the schools that charge nearly a $100,000 a year, it's increasingly a barbell - rich and low income, and not much in between. The real superstar schools are those that make it work for talented MC and UMC students - and there aren't many. Maybe 15.
These are medians, not averages. So, no, a couple superstar salaries aren’t doing much to the median. Yes, the data is a bit old, but do you have better?
Anonymous
08/03/2025 17:15
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
What are these random schools doing to attract these students
A relative went to W&L for the fin aid (not sure if need based or merit). Parents had the money but tied up elsewhere and did not want to be full pay. Smart enough kid, said the alumni did things like fly the students to their private islands and help them land their first jobs. He has made bank - with zero family connections.
Hopefully it wasn’t the Epstein island.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 17:14
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
What are these random schools doing to attract these students
A relative went to W&L for the fin aid (not sure if need based or merit). Parents had the money but tied up elsewhere and did not want to be full pay. Smart enough kid, said the alumni did things like fly the students to their private islands and help them land their first jobs. He has made bank - with zero family connections.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 17:01
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
The data behind this is at least 15 years old. Much has changed since then.
And SLACs have so few students that a handful of private equity or hedge fund families would completely distort averages. This is not a useful list for 2025. Especially since US NEWS changed their algorithm and now really value Pell Grant students and FGLI so on in their rankings. No doubt that has distorted and altered acceptances in recent years. For the schools that charge nearly a $100,000 a year, it's increasingly a barbell - rich and low income, and not much in between. The real superstar schools are those that make it work for talented MC and UMC students - and there aren't many. Maybe 15.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:55
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
This thread is so stupid.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:48
Subject: Re:What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:HYPSM are the only truly elite schools IMHO.
Opinions are like A$$hole$ everyone has them. And your opinion is worth absolutely zero.
Why the vitriol?
HYPSM graduates are secure being part of institutions that are elite. The other schools are a tier below except for Oxford and Cambridge.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:44
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
I don't think HYP even belongs in the same sentence as MIT and Stanford. MIT and Stanford are at a different level than Harvard, Yale, and Princeton - globally, professionally, network, quality of education, the talent of undergrad students, resources, opportunities, star professors, research, etc. Plus both MIT and Stanford are excellent at engineering and CS and are at the forefront of a rapidly changing world. Harvard and Yale are woefully behind. Princeton is better, but it's still not at the same level.
MIT and Stanford exist at a different level. HYP and some of the other ivies have made questionable decisions in admissions, leadership, and hiring in recent years. And everyone has noticed - certainly anyone that's been hiring recent grads. HYP are relentlessly focused on hooks - whether wealth, the prominence of parents, athletes, FGLI, and so on. Whereas MIT and Stanford have been much better at picking up the genuine best and brightest, as well as students most likely to make an impact. Neither are perfect, but both are infinitely better than HYP, which have effectively become undergrad country clubs that do a little charity on the side.
HYPSM is a very antiquated construct. There's MIT and Stanford. And then there are about 15 schools that could be used interchangeably, depending on interest and major.
MIT and Stanford exist at a different level. HYP and some of the other ivies have made questionable decisions in admissions, leadership, and hiring in recent years. And everyone has noticed - certainly anyone that's been hiring recent grads. HYP are relentlessly focused on hooks - whether wealth, the prominence of parents, athletes, FGLI, and so on. Whereas MIT and Stanford have been much better at picking up the genuine best and brightest, as well as students most likely to make an impact. Neither are perfect, but both are infinitely better than HYP, which have effectively become undergrad country clubs that do a little charity on the side.
HYPSM is a very antiquated construct. There's MIT and Stanford. And then there are about 15 schools that could be used interchangeably, depending on interest and major.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:38
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
What are these random schools doing to attract these students
Random schools? Try harder.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:33
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
What are these random schools doing to attract these students
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:27
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
I wouldn’t expect a WashU, Vandy, Emory to be losing any sleep for the record either. This is non-sense that fills the time during application seasons. Most are content where they are once they begin.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:24
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There’s an interesting twist to this story. Three or more decades ago, Harvard was largely white and wealthy. There were very few poor or foreign students (less than 5% each). Today, the real family median income of new students at Harvard has halved since the 1990s. Pell Grant students now makeup 20% of entering students and over 50% of kids are getting substantial financial aid.
When Harvard admitted the white and wealthy, public service was considered a duty and a giveback to society while creating an honorable legacy for oneself. Those kids - at least the white and wealthy - have now shifted to other schools. Checkout Opportunity Insight data and you’ll see that WSTL leads the pack. Right there with them are Vanderbilt, Dartmouth, and many liberal arts colleges.
Thus, Harvard has become a bastion for poor, non-white, smart kids who are eager to score big. Their focus is not giving back to society in some noblesse oblige way, but to hack the system to wealth.
Maybe all the hate for WSTL, Vanderbilt, and the like is from Harvard strivers who see the rich, white kids heading to these other schools as a legacy of the past, and in some way, their enemy.
I don't think people at Harvard have hate for WSTL, Vandy or anyone else. We just don't think about those schools that much. Who cares.
Can confirm that even a non-HYP Ivy doesn’t think about them either, they are incredible schools, but once you’re in school no one is spending time thinking about such things. They’re happy where they are and secure.
Happy and secure ones don't write "non-HYP Ivy". They introduced themselves by the name of the school.
Why would they? People say HYP all the time without specifying and everyone on here likes to differentiate the others so non-HYP should cover it fine.
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:23
Subject: What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
According to the NYT based on Opportunity Insights data:
Top 25 Colleges by Median Family Income of Students (Class of 2013, 2015 \$)
1. **Washington University in St. Louis** – \$272,000
2. **Colgate University** – \$270,200
3. **Washington & Lee University** – \$261,000
4. **Middlebury College** – \$244,300
5. **Colby College** – \$236,000
6. **Tufts University** – \$224,800
7. **Davidson College** – \$213,900
8. **Kenyon College** – \$213,500
9. **Brown University** – \$204,200
10. **Bucknell University** – \$204,200
11. **Vanderbilt University** – \$204,500
12. **Claremont McKenna College** – \$201,300
13. **Dartmouth College** – \$200,400
14. **University of Pennsylvania** – \$195,500
15. **Boston College** – \$194,100
16. **Yale University** – \$192,600
17. **Duke University** – \$186,700
18. **Princeton University** – \$186,100
19. **Johns Hopkins University** – \$177,300
20. **Northwestern University** – \$171,200
21. **Stanford University** – \$167,500
22. **Harvard University** – \$168,000–168,800
23. **USC (University of Southern California)** – \$161,400
24. **University of Virginia** – \$155,500
25. **Carnegie Mellon University** – \$154,700
Anonymous
08/03/2025 16:22
Subject: Re:What really differentiates HYPSM from other elite schools
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:HYPSM are the only truly elite schools IMHO.
Opinions are like A$$hole$ everyone has them. And your opinion is worth absolutely zero.
What an obnoxious way to say "I can't handle your opinion."