Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.
Let me clarify:
Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.
But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).
Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.
I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.
Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)
DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If those jobs are so hard and low paying, why would you want to import millions more low skilled workers to further dilute wages and put downward pressure on working conditions?
Why do you accept at face value that it is the nature of things to pay people pennies to pick strawberries for hours under the hot sun?
Why do you feel so entitled to cheap restaurant food, landscaping services, childcare, pedicures, and thousands of other things that currently depend upon the availability of cheap labor?
So many people on DCUM claim we MUST have these people here because our economy depends on it. Yeah, well that same economy was working much better for the mostly white leisure class uC and UMC people than it was for anyone trying to climb the ladder from the bottom, and a big reason for that is downward pressure on labor wages.
TLDR why do you want to protect such an exploitative system, when what we really need to do is create upward pressure on wages and job conditions and that won’t happen with mass immigration whether it is legal or not.
I just can’t believe people are still trotting out the “Americans won’t do it” line when arguing against immigration enforcement. Let Americans decide if they’d rather pay $15 for strawberries or go work on the farm themselves.
What do you, mean “let Americans decide?” You know that the people you are arguing are also Americans, right?
I thought that the republicans were all free market and whatnot?
If you care then we should all support a decent federal minimum wage with COLA by state.
Anonymous wrote:
I just can’t believe people are still trotting out the “Americans won’t do it” line when arguing against immigration enforcement. Let Americans decide if they’d rather pay $15 for strawberries or go work on the farm themselves.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.
Let me clarify:
Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.
But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).
Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.
I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.
Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)
DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.
DP. Crunchy MAGAs are a thing now.
Also I expect a lot of MAGAs to be jerks, but at least they are up front about it. UMC dems are the worst because they pretend to be better but they are just as worried about their own money and status and don’t -really- want a change in the order of things.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.
Let me clarify:
Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.
But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).
Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.
I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.
Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)
DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.
DP. Crunchy MAGAs are a thing now.
Also I expect a lot of MAGAs to be jerks, but at least they are up front about it. UMC dems are the worst because they pretend to be better but they are just as worried about their own money and status and don’t -really- want a change in the order of things.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think you think wages is the end all to this decision. As someone who HAS cleaned hotel rooms and who HAS picked crops (briefly b/c it sucks), I'd never do these jobs again. Never.
I grew up pretty poor in a rural area where kids worked young and worked ALOT. So I've done jobs most people on here have not and would not. Those jobs are back breaking, disgusting jobs.
And here you are, missing the whole boat again.
Maybe you are in a position where you have enough financial security and other skills where can say you will NEVER do that job. Fine. But we can’t all be white collar workers, and our white collar job salaries only go as far as they do because other people are doing the nasty dirty work you do not want to do.
The fact is, if someone is hungry enough and able, they will do a job. We have tons of people who are both on welfare and overweight, while brown people are working and harvesting the crops. I mean, WTF?? And we have UMC DCUM people who have never done manual labor in their lives, because the brown people are doing it. Why is this good?
A lot of you really lack imagination and literally can’t imagine where labor and resources are distributed more equitably. I guess Larlo is just too special to work in a tire shop.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.
Let me clarify:
Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.
But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).
Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.
I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.
Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)
DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.
Let me clarify:
Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.
But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).
Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.
I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.
Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)
DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.
Let me clarify:
Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.
But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).
Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.
I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.
Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.
Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?
Chicken farms
Less than one week after ICE raided 7 food processing facilities in Mississippi apprehending nearly 700 illegal workers, American citizens are rushing to freshly-available jobs.
Koch Foods is headquartered in Chicago but maintains a chicken processing facility in Mississippi that employed 243 of the 680 undocumented Latino workers arrested in the raids last Thursday. Koch has since collaborated with the Mississippi Department of Employment Security (MDES), holding a job fair to recruit new, legal, workers, according to the Associated Press.
The fair raked in 200 applications before noon, according to local media. The company says it will require applicants to present two forms of identification before being hired, according to CNN. MDES will also vet all Mississippi workers for legality using the state’s E-Verify system, according to USA Today.
I would not do that work for peanuts with no benefits, like most US workers. maybe they should increase the wages and add health care? crazy idea to people like you.
Econ 101 will give you background on the impact of Supply and Demand on prices.
if Supply goes up, the cost will come down.
if Supply goes down, the cost goes up.
if we were to limit the overwhelming immigration of low wage workers, the wages for low wage workers would increase.
I think that is a good thing.
people like you think that is a bad thing.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/13/citizens-line-up-mississippi-jobs-fear-ice-raids-impact-immigrants/
Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.
Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.
From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.
OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.
One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.
To a point.
Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.
FTR, I’m a Dem.
Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.
Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.
And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.
Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.
What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????
We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.