Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)

DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.

This. I feel a duty to buy recycled toothbrushes or paper because I have money to do so. But, I’ve always said the government should tax non-recycled items so that recycled items are cheaper, and thus the default.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If those jobs are so hard and low paying, why would you want to import millions more low skilled workers to further dilute wages and put downward pressure on working conditions?

Why do you accept at face value that it is the nature of things to pay people pennies to pick strawberries for hours under the hot sun?

Why do you feel so entitled to cheap restaurant food, landscaping services, childcare, pedicures, and thousands of other things that currently depend upon the availability of cheap labor?

So many people on DCUM claim we MUST have these people here because our economy depends on it. Yeah, well that same economy was working much better for the mostly white leisure class uC and UMC people than it was for anyone trying to climb the ladder from the bottom, and a big reason for that is downward pressure on labor wages.

TLDR why do you want to protect such an exploitative system, when what we really need to do is create upward pressure on wages and job conditions and that won’t happen with mass immigration whether it is legal or not.

I just can’t believe people are still trotting out the “Americans won’t do it” line when arguing against immigration enforcement. Let Americans decide if they’d rather pay $15 for strawberries or go work on the farm themselves.

What do you, mean “let Americans decide?” You know that the people you are arguing are also Americans, right?

I thought that the republicans were all free market and whatnot?

If you care then we should all support a decent federal minimum wage with COLA by state.

Free market? Then let's really make it a free market.

All workers go cash only and report nothing. That means blue and white collar. No business taxes for anyone.

Nevermind the "report all transactions over $600", how about no capital gains taxes either. You want to play this game, let's crash the boat right into the dock.

Everyone can remit and have their holdings offshore with no reportability. No W-2s, No I-9's, no passports and visas, and paper degrees count for zero.

Democrats are so stupid. We know republicans are evil but why did democrats
Abandon their base???

It was not like this a generation ago, democrats were the proud party of the US worker

Vernon Briggs

I consider labor shortages wonderful. I have never known anything bad to come from a labor shortage, and what we are doing with our immigration policy is keeping the labor market in constant surplus.

Vernon Briggs
Cornell Labor Economist

The underlying truth about the immigration battle is that is is fundamentally between those with an insatiable appetite for more cheap, disposable, foreign workers, and those who embrace the social good of tight labor markets.

Anonymous wrote:
I just can’t believe people are still trotting out the “Americans won’t do it” line when arguing against immigration enforcement. Let Americans decide if they’d rather pay $15 for strawberries or go work on the farm themselves.

Those are fighting words. Plays right into the Republican playbook. "Oh no here come the elites (here they come boots marching)" They want us to pick strawberries for them, or ELSE! they'll find someone that will! Unless their demands are met, they won't stop globalizing so there.

Never mind that we kind of like picking strawberries in the first place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)

DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.

DP. Crunchy MAGAs are a thing now.

Also I expect a lot of MAGAs to be jerks, but at least they are up front about it. UMC dems are the worst because they pretend to be better but they are just as worried about their own money and status and don’t -really- want a change in the order of things.

This is all predicated on the "limousine liberals" mythology as if Democrats all have nannies and landscapers and limousines. It doesn't represent anyone most Democrats know, you're talking about maybe 1% of Democrats. Please get out of your echo chamber and get out and actually meet some actual Democrats for a change rather than basing your entire worldview on what you've read from other terminally online people living in the echo chamber.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)

DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.

DP. Crunchy MAGAs are a thing now.

Also I expect a lot of MAGAs to be jerks, but at least they are up front about it. UMC dems are the worst because they pretend to be better but they are just as worried about their own money and status and don’t -really- want a change in the order of things.

Yes, exactly.

It’s like the people pretending they are all about diversity and inclusion and economic justice who scramble to live in the most expensive neighborhoods and safely ensconce their kids in elite private schools. That’s not walking the walk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you think wages is the end all to this decision. As someone who HAS cleaned hotel rooms and who HAS picked crops (briefly b/c it sucks), I'd never do these jobs again. Never.

I grew up pretty poor in a rural area where kids worked young and worked ALOT. So I've done jobs most people on here have not and would not. Those jobs are back breaking, disgusting jobs.

And here you are, missing the whole boat again.
Maybe you are in a position where you have enough financial security and other skills where can say you will NEVER do that job. Fine. But we can’t all be white collar workers, and our white collar job salaries only go as far as they do because other people are doing the nasty dirty work you do not want to do.

The fact is, if someone is hungry enough and able, they will do a job. We have tons of people who are both on welfare and overweight, while brown people are working and harvesting the crops. I mean, WTF?? And we have UMC DCUM people who have never done manual labor in their lives, because the brown people are doing it. Why is this good?

A lot of you really lack imagination and literally can’t imagine where labor and resources are distributed more equitably. I guess Larlo is just too special to work in a tire shop.

Except we know this is not true. There already people hungry and poor who won't do it. Or cannot due to childcare (which is unaffordable) or disabilities or whatever. I get the boat. I LIVED "the boat" and have had both sets of jobs in my life. And I can tell you there are a whole host of people in my rust belt town who are white and poor and still won't do those jobs.

If you want people to do those jobs- white or brown- there should be increased safety and health standards for them and they should be paid more. THAT'S how you get people to do it. Not "the brown people are not here to do it anymore so you have to do it now b/c I think you should."

And as for our kids being "too special" for work in a tire shop or other service industry, what does your kid do? And further, having worked in many, MANY service and blue collar jobs, yeah, no, I don't want my kid there. Not bc it's beneath me or DC. But because they are, generally speaking, rough careers, not paid well, and not always safe (esp. for women). I could tell you stories of how men treated me in those jobs that would make you blush.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)

DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.

Listen, I’m not saying all Dems fall short, and I’m certainly not suggesting Republicans are better on these issues.

Rather, I’m pointing out the reason why doing better on these complex issues seems to elude us despite the policy platforms we supposedly support: it’s because when it comes time to pull out our wallets, it’s human nature to save money and opt for convenience.

Guys, if we can’t acknowledge these issues, then we won’t be able to better address them. Stop acting like all Dems march in lockstep and opt to spend more for groceries and pay taxes on Nannies and housekeepers. Some do, but most don’t. And I agree the republicans are worse on these issues (no contest).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)

DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.

DP. Crunchy MAGAs are a thing now.

Also I expect a lot of MAGAs to be jerks, but at least they are up front about it. UMC dems are the worst because they pretend to be better but they are just as worried about their own money and status and don’t -really- want a change in the order of things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)

DP. That's completely false. Dems are usually the ones looking for and willing to pay for a better option, like organic produce to try to avoid pesticides, opting in to green energy when given a choice, buying from a more ethical vendor, and all of those kinds of things even if it means paying more.

Meatpacking

Meatpacking used to be a stable, middle-class union job, with multiple generations of families working at the same plant. In 1960, the industry was 95% unionized, paying wages that were comparable to those in the auto and steel industries. Meatpacking was skilled labor. A meatpacker was trained like an old-fashioned butcher to take an animal from slaughter to final cuts.

In the 1960s, a company called IBP (Iowa Beef Packers) figured out that you didn't need skilled labor if you didn't care about your workers. Instead of workers doing a variety of jobs, IBP had workers do one cut all day long, maybe separate the hind quarter from the carcass, or slice a single cut of steak.

Meatpacking wages across the industry stayed high through the early 1980s, but then started to fall, as more companies adopted the IBP method. After all, anyone could be trained to do a single cut. By the mid-80s, wages had plunged and unions were disappearing. It was a race to the bottom and meatpacking was quickly becoming the worst job in America.

One reason it was now so awful, was that the IBP method resulted in a huge rise in repetitive stress injuries and debilitating knife cuts caused by inattention and fatigue. Doing one cut all day long on a speeding factory line was good for corporate profits but disastrously bad for actual humans.

Today, Places like Tyson Chicken and Smithfield Ham need an endless supply of 3rd world immigrants to keep wages low and unions busted, but also because it's a job that destroys the human body and spirit. Even if you're not injured, the work is so grueling that most immigrants can only do it for a couple of years before they move on. That's why you'll see that the ethnic composition of rural meatpacking towns goes through successive waves of foreigners-- Mexicans, Somalis, Sudanese, Guatemalans, Haitians-- as each group gets brought in and burned out, while management goes looking for another group of suckers.

Shutting down the immigration pipeline and deporting the illegals will go a long way to restoring the balance between workers and corporations. Likewise, we need to go back to a system with lots of small-scale regional meat processors staffed by skilled workers, something that will require breaking up these abusive corporations and overhauling the USDA inspection program.

Yes, prices of meat will certainly rise, but you already shouldn't be eating factory-farmed meat and you shouldn't be patronizing corporations that are actively wrecking America.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

Chicken farms

Less than one week after ICE raided 7 food processing facilities in Mississippi apprehending nearly 700 illegal workers, American citizens are rushing to freshly-available jobs.

Koch Foods is headquartered in Chicago but maintains a chicken processing facility in Mississippi that employed 243 of the 680 undocumented Latino workers arrested in the raids last Thursday. Koch has since collaborated with the Mississippi Department of Employment Security (MDES), holding a job fair to recruit new, legal, workers, according to the Associated Press.

The fair raked in 200 applications before noon, according to local media. The company says it will require applicants to present two forms of identification before being hired, according to CNN. MDES will also vet all Mississippi workers for legality using the state’s E-Verify system, according to USA Today.

I would not do that work for peanuts with no benefits, like most US workers. maybe they should increase the wages and add health care? crazy idea to people like you.
Econ 101 will give you background on the impact of Supply and Demand on prices.

if Supply goes up, the cost will come down.

if Supply goes down, the cost goes up.

if we were to limit the overwhelming immigration of low wage workers, the wages for low wage workers would increase.

I think that is a good thing.
people like you think that is a bad thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/13/citizens-line-up-mississippi-jobs-fear-ice-raids-impact-immigrants/

DP

I don’t disagree, but it’s far more complicated than you describe.

Beyond chicken, there’s the seafood industry. Let’s keep it local since we have both the chicken and seafood (crab picking) industries in MD/DE.

I worked on litigation a million years ago related to unfair treatment of imported workers for both industries. Oy vey did we go down a rabbit hole! I was (still am) a bleeding heart liberal surrounded by similar public interest lawyers and nonprofit policy wonks and grassroots organizers for worker rights and immigrant rights. We also had access to Big Law (a mixed bag in terms of their political views). Long story short: before globalization and more frequent immigration, black people held these jobs in MD/DE. Many of them walked away from these jobs seeking better opportunities elsewhere, meaning they left the area (hint: more and better jobs are in urban areas; not a lot happening on the eastern shore). There was a population decrease (we’ve all seen the ghost towns on the eastern shore) and those who remained didn’t want these awful jobs. There was a need to import workers, but there’s never a good reason to treat these people like slaves. (That’s where the lawsuits came in.)

But the policy analysts (even those on our side, the left) did acknowledge that prices would go up based on the safeguards and salaries envisioned.

Anonymous wrote:FYI Trump also wants foreign workers. He acknowledged that many farmers and hotels have been hurt by the raids.

Why do you think only rich people should be able to afford strawberries at $15 per?

Chicken farms

Less than one week after ICE raided 7 food processing facilities in Mississippi apprehending nearly 700 illegal workers, American citizens are rushing to freshly-available jobs.

Koch Foods is headquartered in Chicago but maintains a chicken processing facility in Mississippi that employed 243 of the 680 undocumented Latino workers arrested in the raids last Thursday. Koch has since collaborated with the Mississippi Department of Employment Security (MDES), holding a job fair to recruit new, legal, workers, according to the Associated Press.

The fair raked in 200 applications before noon, according to local media. The company says it will require applicants to present two forms of identification before being hired, according to CNN. MDES will also vet all Mississippi workers for legality using the state’s E-Verify system, according to USA Today.

I would not do that work for peanuts with no benefits, like most US workers. maybe they should increase the wages and add health care? crazy idea to people like you.
Econ 101 will give you background on the impact of Supply and Demand on prices.

if Supply goes up, the cost will come down.

if Supply goes down, the cost goes up.

if we were to limit the overwhelming immigration of low wage workers, the wages for low wage workers would increase.

I think that is a good thing.
people like you think that is a bad thing.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/08/13/citizens-line-up-mississippi-jobs-fear-ice-raids-impact-immigrants/

Income Inequality

During annual summer treks leading high school students in building houses for the poor, I gradually came to see what became some of the central themes our elitist culture.

In the part of the country where we work, most of the people who qualify for the houses are black Americans with full-time jobs. A steady income is necessary because housing recipients must make monthly payments to Habitat for Humanity for the cost of materials used in building their small, simple houses. But without the free labor provided by volunteers and the interest-free loans provided by Habitat, these American workers' wages are inadequate to secure a 900- square-foot home that meets modern codes.

The Habitat efforts are able to help but a tiny percentage of those in need; many of the masses who continue to live in substandard housing do not even have indoor bathrooms. That Americans who seem to play by the rules and work hard would have to live in such conditions, or rely on our charitable assistance to have decent housing, strikes many of the teenage volunteers as unjust.

Questioning the reason for the inadequate wages is a part of the religious tradition of the youths' sponsoring church.

The tradition holds that charity is an insufficient response to need if the cause of the need is an unjust system that could reasonably be corrected. I looked further for causes of the low wages.

I found that nearly every job these Americans have is in an industry into which Washington brings thousands of additional foreign workers each year through its immigration policies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The argument is not and should not be that "Americans won't do these jobs" but that we have inadequate citizen applicants to get the job done when the job is important and needed from generating food to nursing care.

From inception, the U.S. was built on free and then underpaid labor. Indentured servants > slaves > sharecroppers/Jim Crow blacks > Irish/Italian/Polish/Chinese immigrants > illegal immigrants from Latin America. Our food and several manufacturing sectors have ALWAYS paid below market-rate wages.

OP here. Yes, I read The Jungle. I thought we were supposed to be progressing past that. A lot of people on this thread are fine with those jobs continuing to suck as long as it’s not them who has to do them.

One side supports OSHA and safe working conditions, healthcare, education and a minimum wage. The other side is the GOP. Not the same.

To a point.

Dems support all those things in theory, but they don’t want to pay for them.

FTR, I’m a Dem.

Just look at how we’ve abandoned mom and pop shops to support Amazon, Walmart, and target. It’s because people prefer to pay less.

Ditto for using uber instead of (uninionized) taxis. Uber is cheaper.

And what about Airbnb? Hilton actually offers their workers good wages and benefits that mirror what is required in socialized countries in the EU, let many people opt for the cheaper Airbnbs despite the fact they are destroying the housing market…particularly for los wage workers and the elderly.

Most people only “care” in theory. Once it hits their own wallet, they sing a different tune.

What do you mean "the dems don't want to pay for them"?????????

We had OSHA and these other things and were paying for them. It is the GOP who is dismantling everything.
And Amazon, Walmart, Target, Uber etc are all owned by tech billionaires who are MAGAs.
Dems support things like Main Streets which the national organization is propped up by Historic Preservation organizations. That is where support for Mom and Pop shops is coming from and they are anything but right wingers.

Let me clarify:

Yes, of course OSHA is important and Dems would happily pay for that. We are typically fine with supporting things at the federal/macro level.

But when it comes to whipping out our wallet to pay for things, many/most Dems opt for the cheaper option (see my prior post where I provided a number of examples).

Yes, I know the big box stores are owned by Republican billionaires…which is why I don’t shop there. But the masses *do* shop there. It’s very telling that most people’s politics and morals go out the window when it comes to convenience and price.

I get it: it’s hard to walk the walk. It’s much easier just to talk the talk.

Similarly, many Dems have cleaning services, landscapers, Nannies, etc. who they pay cash under the table. Why? Cheaper for them…without any of the protections you believe all Dems universally support. (FTR, I’ve never hired a cleaning service, landscapers, or a nanny.)