Anonymous wrote:Amherst clubs are not allowed to get school funding if they have any sort of selection criteria.

Good for them. Everyone is paying tuition, everyone should have the same options in extracurricular.

Even at my child’s t100 university, some of the pre-professional clubs are very competitive! The problem is they become too large if they’re not competitive so I’m not sure what the solution is.

Don’t forget that many cultural affinity clubs can be informal networks, especially if their alumni are involved.

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Anonymous wrote:I wonder if the competitive preprof college clubs really matter? My kid is starting at penn and club applications and interviews sound very time consuming... during a time when kids are just settling in. I dont really understand the benefit of and high demand for preprof clubs. Do they provide a real advantage in the future job search or not? Wondering if they can/should avoid those clubs and focus time on studies, meeting people and finding some fun activities/orgs to join. Would appreciate any thoughts/experience on this topic...

They likely need both the social aspect and the pre-professional aspect and it could be the same or different clubs that provide it. Both of my kids met their future roommates and friend group from their clubs. My older one is in one connected with their major that also has a social aspect with formals, community service etc. and my younger is in more of a social /activity based one where you can be a general member without needing to apply and as long as you pay your dues you can go to the social events and main activity. You can also decide to try out for the competitive teams for that activity.

The challenge when looking for internships etc, it’s tough to get that first internship in your field if you don’t have a connection and you don’t have any applied experience or any recent leadership/examples of working effectively with teams. Sometimes kids will have project based work in class that they can highlight and group projects experiences on how they have handled different situations. I’ve also seen kids gain some of that experience by joining a club that wasn’t competitive and is something they enjoy and then working on the team or getting a leadership role in something that relates to their major as part of that club. I would also add sometimes, it stands out when someone has an interest that might be on the opposite end of what they study. If I am screening 50 resumes for am intern, an interesting activity won’t make up for lack of experience or fit but it will help them stand out of everyone is qualified on paper and they all have the same activities.

Why do you need to mix the social and professional aspect? In real life you don’t go to the engineering brewery to have a drink with your friends and also network for a job. It actually sounds stupid when you think of it.

It’s not high school anymore, you don’t need student leadership positions, you need actual leadership. Which is gotten by starting at entry level jobs, proving yourself and working your way up.

If I’m screening 50 resumes for an internship, first I want to see a relevant major and coursework, some skills that you’re good at (eg programming, cad, automation) what projects you worked on and in what capacity, then some work experience. If it’s in the field it’s great if not it’s still ok. You can get a lot of this by working with a professor instead of dicking around with a bunch of equally useless undergrads.

Keep the clubs for doing something fun and interesting for yourself, not to put in a resume. In my day I did sailing, tango club, rock climbing, had a few officer positions, organized events attended by hundreds of people, international musicians, an audio library, made tshirts, set up a ticket sales website. All made possible by writing proposals to the university and paid by student life office. Never crossed my mind to interview volunteers and for everyone that wanted to participate, I tried to find a role and develop their talents and interests.

The crap detailed in this thread is completely bonkers. Why would anyone put up with it unless they are hostages to a herd mentality.

In real life people do mix the social and the professional - that’s literally networking. You might join the young professional network at your engineering firm and they have a happy hour or you join your company’s recreational soccer team and when you see them in a work context you have that rapport from knowing each other on the rec soccer team.

For college clubs I didn’t say you need to do both within the same activity/group. People want friends and to have activities they enjoy. They also want work experience/connections that will help with finding employees after graduating. Even in the example you gave of “sailing, tango club, rock climbing, had a few officer positions, organized events attended by hundreds of people” you presumably made friends thru some of these activities. You also gained good work and leadership experience along the way. The difference is some of that work/leadership experience you created your own opportunities by finding funding and leading it,

Back to Op’s questions some clubs are very competitive. But there are usually clubs that aren’t competitive like religious fellowship, volunteering, rec teams, Dungeons amd Dragons and some that will take all newcomers. Club sports will depend on the school and the sport. So being shut out of competitive clubs doesn’t mean game over. For the work experience aspect they can look for opportunities with a more social club they are already involved with, they can try to work with their professor or they can create their own opportunities like the PP did if the competitive club route isn’t working for them.

Anonymous wrote:Ah. I'm guessing my kid's DnD club is not selective

Depends on who the DM is.

Anonymous wrote:I suspect this is only an issue at T20ish schools for certain kinds of clubs, like pre-professional ones (investment, etc).

You would be incorrect. DC is at a Big 10 (not Mich) and the top business and professional clubs are very competitive. Some club sports are also crazy competitive.

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Anonymous wrote:I'm hearing that it's very difficult at many colleges to get into clubs. That it takes students several tries to get into clubs. Interested in hearing what other parents have to say their student(s')'s experience(s).

Depends on the club.
Pole dancing Clubs believe or not is a thing and it is tough to get in.
….

As crazy as it sounds, this is actually true at my kid’s t15.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if the competitive preprof college clubs really matter? My kid is starting at penn and club applications and interviews sound very time consuming... during a time when kids are just settling in. I dont really understand the benefit of and high demand for preprof clubs. Do they provide a real advantage in the future job search or not? Wondering if they can/should avoid those clubs and focus time on studies, meeting people and finding some fun activities/orgs to join. Would appreciate any thoughts/experience on this topic...

For med school no and honestly your kid is better off doing their own thing and avoiding the pre med echo chamber. Not sure about other fields.

Question: While I agree that a lot of premed activities are not clubs (research, shadowing), it seems like one club a lot of premeds do and seem to think is helpful is EMT. Is that right? How competitive is that at various schools? Wondering particularly about competitiveness at mid-size (ivy, wash u, etc) vs top SLACS.

I have an EMT at mid-size Ivy, was 1 of 3 first years admitted first semester, maybe 5 second semester. Not taking any new this coming Fall.

Went to another admit day at an Ivy and happened to meet a parent that’s son was girlfriend of director of their EMS. It sounded just as competitive and more who you know. The school mine chose isn’t who you know, but recommend coming in with license and reciprocity already done. I think at competitive schools they want you all four years so come in ready to go.

Anonymous wrote:Can anyone speak about club sports at some of these highly-ranked D1 schools? DC loves their sport and wants to play club in college. How do they find out how competitive the club scene is at a particular school?

This isn't a make-or-break issue when choosing a school, obviously. But as clubs/ECs go, club sports are much more important to DC than the consulting/finance club scenes.

Depends on the sport or school but but it would be best to assume that it isn't easy. My experience (two sports) is that many of the D1 club players were solid D3 recruits who wanted a different school environment or sometimes Varsity players who dropped after seeing that they wouldn't be getting significant playing time but wanted to stay at the school.

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Anonymous wrote:I think people are missing the point of exclusive clubs at many of these schools - they are nothing less than an extension of the overall exclusivity, most of it based not on merit, based on who you know, what your parents do for a living, what other exclusive community you have already been part of, etc. Will some great kids get in simply because they work hard, are likable and would be an asset to the club? Absolutely. Will many slots be 'reserved' for frat brothers, private school buddies, someone who dated your best friend's sister, the kid whose dad is a partner at Goldman, and so on and so on? Of course, so maybe we should stop with both the surprise and the 'of course they should work hard to get into these clubs' attitude? You know who the hardest working kids at most of the elite schools tend to be? The kids on full FA, the FGLI kids, the ones who already had to scrape and go above and beyond just to get themselves the education to be prepared and then get themselves into these schools. Are some of them in these clubs? Sure, but many of the spots are 'reserved' before they ever submit their applications, in the way a large percentage of the seats in these schools are already earmarked. Should we talk about Princeton eating clubs or Harvard final clubs next?

Why would kids with elite connections even bother with these pre-professional clubs? They have direct access these jobs via their families and family friends. It's the strivers who need to hustle.

Correct. Kids with elite connections can do whatever the heck they want in college. They are set.

As someone whose kids went to one of these private schools, while it's true the wealthy kids with connections often do not care to be in these clubs - they after all have the option of truly chasing their dreams of becoming writers, actors, film makers, or working in the nonprofit or service sector, etc, without worrying about financially supporting themselves - many of course do want to go into finance or related fields, and they want to go into the top tier of those fields. These are not lazy kids, most of them got good grades and worked hard. No one is saying they don't 'deserve' what they are getting - its just that they do not deserve it more than others without the connections. Just because the kid of a billionaire is not going to bother to joining these clubs does not mean the kids of very or even extremely wealthy parents are not going to. Of course they do - just look at the club memberships.

At a certain point this is a zero sum game. No need for this inauthentic “desert” lip-service.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are missing the point of exclusive clubs at many of these schools - they are nothing less than an extension of the overall exclusivity, most of it based not on merit, based on who you know, what your parents do for a living, what other exclusive community you have already been part of, etc. Will some great kids get in simply because they work hard, are likable and would be an asset to the club? Absolutely. Will many slots be 'reserved' for frat brothers, private school buddies, someone who dated your best friend's sister, the kid whose dad is a partner at Goldman, and so on and so on? Of course, so maybe we should stop with both the surprise and the 'of course they should work hard to get into these clubs' attitude? You know who the hardest working kids at most of the elite schools tend to be? The kids on full FA, the FGLI kids, the ones who already had to scrape and go above and beyond just to get themselves the education to be prepared and then get themselves into these schools. Are some of them in these clubs? Sure, but many of the spots are 'reserved' before they ever submit their applications, in the way a large percentage of the seats in these schools are already earmarked. Should we talk about Princeton eating clubs or Harvard final clubs next?

Them’s a lot of words to say you think club exclusivity should be banned, as in most top SLACs. Or are you saying that’s just the way it is so suck it up? Unclear.

Banning club exclusivity is not going to ban exclusivity. Reality is suck it up.

Ah, so Amherst and Williams are making a mistake because things are already exclusive — so schools should just officially subsidize it in the form of financial support for clubs. Just like sports teams are subsidized for the 33% of SLAC students who are recruited athletes. I’d say get rid of the recruited sports and subsidized clubs both. But I take your point.

Sports teams are a different kind of club that does come with some advantages. I think the over-the-top focus on collegiate sports is silly personally, but that ship has sailed.

Actually the analogy is very fitting. The most exclusive clubs have at national universities have to do with finance. Everyone knows the best entree into the finance world at top SLACs is through athlete networks.

Absolutely. Many many opportunities come through networks. Teach your student this. And don't slouch on your own connections because parents are serving up opportunities for their students and the students of other parents in their network.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are missing the point of exclusive clubs at many of these schools - they are nothing less than an extension of the overall exclusivity, most of it based not on merit, based on who you know, what your parents do for a living, what other exclusive community you have already been part of, etc. Will some great kids get in simply because they work hard, are likable and would be an asset to the club? Absolutely. Will many slots be 'reserved' for frat brothers, private school buddies, someone who dated your best friend's sister, the kid whose dad is a partner at Goldman, and so on and so on? Of course, so maybe we should stop with both the surprise and the 'of course they should work hard to get into these clubs' attitude? You know who the hardest working kids at most of the elite schools tend to be? The kids on full FA, the FGLI kids, the ones who already had to scrape and go above and beyond just to get themselves the education to be prepared and then get themselves into these schools. Are some of them in these clubs? Sure, but many of the spots are 'reserved' before they ever submit their applications, in the way a large percentage of the seats in these schools are already earmarked. Should we talk about Princeton eating clubs or Harvard final clubs next?

Why would kids with elite connections even bother with these pre-professional clubs? They have direct access these jobs via their families and family friends. It's the strivers who need to hustle.

Correct. Kids with elite connections can do whatever the heck they want in college. They are set.

As someone whose kids went to one of these private schools, while it's true the wealthy kids with connections often do not care to be in these clubs - they after all have the option of truly chasing their dreams of becoming writers, actors, film makers, or working in the nonprofit or service sector, etc, without worrying about financially supporting themselves - many of course do want to go into finance or related fields, and they want to go into the top tier of those fields. These are not lazy kids, most of them got good grades and worked hard. No one is saying they don't 'deserve' what they are getting - its just that they do not deserve it more than others without the connections. Just because the kid of a billionaire is not going to bother to joining these clubs does not mean the kids of very or even extremely wealthy parents are not going to. Of course they do - just look at the club memberships.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are missing the point of exclusive clubs at many of these schools - they are nothing less than an extension of the overall exclusivity, most of it based not on merit, based on who you know, what your parents do for a living, what other exclusive community you have already been part of, etc. Will some great kids get in simply because they work hard, are likable and would be an asset to the club? Absolutely. Will many slots be 'reserved' for frat brothers, private school buddies, someone who dated your best friend's sister, the kid whose dad is a partner at Goldman, and so on and so on? Of course, so maybe we should stop with both the surprise and the 'of course they should work hard to get into these clubs' attitude? You know who the hardest working kids at most of the elite schools tend to be? The kids on full FA, the FGLI kids, the ones who already had to scrape and go above and beyond just to get themselves the education to be prepared and then get themselves into these schools. Are some of them in these clubs? Sure, but many of the spots are 'reserved' before they ever submit their applications, in the way a large percentage of the seats in these schools are already earmarked. Should we talk about Princeton eating clubs or Harvard final clubs next?

Them’s a lot of words to say you think club exclusivity should be banned, as in most top SLACs. Or are you saying that’s just the way it is so suck it up? Unclear.

Banning club exclusivity is not going to ban exclusivity. Reality is suck it up.

Ah, so Amherst and Williams are making a mistake because things are already exclusive — so schools should just officially subsidize it in the form of financial support for clubs. Just like sports teams are subsidized for the 33% of SLAC students who are recruited athletes. I’d say get rid of the recruited sports and subsidized clubs both. But I take your point.

Sports teams are a different kind of club that does come with some advantages. I think the over-the-top focus on collegiate sports is silly personally, but that ship has sailed.

Actually the analogy is very fitting. The most exclusive clubs have at national universities have to do with finance. Everyone knows the best entree into the finance world at top SLACs is through athlete networks.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are missing the point of exclusive clubs at many of these schools - they are nothing less than an extension of the overall exclusivity, most of it based not on merit, based on who you know, what your parents do for a living, what other exclusive community you have already been part of, etc. Will some great kids get in simply because they work hard, are likable and would be an asset to the club? Absolutely. Will many slots be 'reserved' for frat brothers, private school buddies, someone who dated your best friend's sister, the kid whose dad is a partner at Goldman, and so on and so on? Of course, so maybe we should stop with both the surprise and the 'of course they should work hard to get into these clubs' attitude? You know who the hardest working kids at most of the elite schools tend to be? The kids on full FA, the FGLI kids, the ones who already had to scrape and go above and beyond just to get themselves the education to be prepared and then get themselves into these schools. Are some of them in these clubs? Sure, but many of the spots are 'reserved' before they ever submit their applications, in the way a large percentage of the seats in these schools are already earmarked. Should we talk about Princeton eating clubs or Harvard final clubs next?

Them’s a lot of words to say you think club exclusivity should be banned, as in most top SLACs. Or are you saying that’s just the way it is so suck it up? Unclear.

Banning club exclusivity is not going to ban exclusivity. Reality is suck it up.

Ah, so Amherst and Williams are making a mistake because things are already exclusive — so schools should just officially subsidize it in the form of financial support for clubs. Just like sports teams are subsidized for the 33% of SLAC students who are recruited athletes. I’d say get rid of the recruited sports and subsidized clubs both. But I take your point.

Sports teams are a different kind of club that does come with some advantages. I think the over-the-top focus on collegiate sports is silly personally, but that ship has sailed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people are missing the point of exclusive clubs at many of these schools - they are nothing less than an extension of the overall exclusivity, most of it based not on merit, based on who you know, what your parents do for a living, what other exclusive community you have already been part of, etc. Will some great kids get in simply because they work hard, are likable and would be an asset to the club? Absolutely. Will many slots be 'reserved' for frat brothers, private school buddies, someone who dated your best friend's sister, the kid whose dad is a partner at Goldman, and so on and so on? Of course, so maybe we should stop with both the surprise and the 'of course they should work hard to get into these clubs' attitude? You know who the hardest working kids at most of the elite schools tend to be? The kids on full FA, the FGLI kids, the ones who already had to scrape and go above and beyond just to get themselves the education to be prepared and then get themselves into these schools. Are some of them in these clubs? Sure, but many of the spots are 'reserved' before they ever submit their applications, in the way a large percentage of the seats in these schools are already earmarked. Should we talk about Princeton eating clubs or Harvard final clubs next?

Them’s a lot of words to say you think club exclusivity should be banned, as in most top SLACs. Or are you saying that’s just the way it is so suck it up? Unclear.

Banning club exclusivity is not going to ban exclusivity. Reality is suck it up.

Ah, so Amherst and Williams are making a mistake because things are already exclusive — so schools should just officially subsidize it in the form of financial support for clubs. Just like sports teams are subsidized for the 33% of SLAC students who are recruited athletes. I’d say get rid of the recruited sports and subsidized clubs both. But I take your point.