Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1216391.page

As per the above thread from last year, the times used for simulations are taken solely from dual (A) meets. That explains how they can know Division assignments for next year so soon after Divisionals, i.e., performance at Divisionals has no bearing on Division assignments for the following year. It does matter for final Division standings and is a last chance for a kid to improve times for individual all-stars.

So, no. Divisionals is not the “last chance” for a team to influence their Divisional assignment for the next year.

Interesting. Can you clarify the bold above? Does a team's final division standing have any bearing at all on division assignments the following year?

From the MCSL handbook: “ A team’s final place in the division is the sum of its dual meet, relay meet and division championship meet points.”

I haven’t been able to find anything in the handbook about how they assign divisions for the following year, so I’m going by last year’s thread (the one I linked). If the latter is true, then next year’s division assignments are based on the simulations run using data from dual meets only, not division championships. And even that data apparently doesn’t take into account all times from dual meets, only some.

If anyone has a valid source for how MCSL determines division assignments for the next year, I’d love to see it!

But why does a team's final place in the division matter if computer simulations will determine whether the team moves up or down? If you stay in your division, then your preseason rank is irrelevant to how you actually perform.

It matters for the same reason any other championship matters (or doesn't) - they want that team trophy and the pride of winning the division. It's quite possible to win a division and sweep the meets and still stay where you are for the following year, too, and most people who care know that, as well. Moving up is something of an honor but also sobering - you have a decent chance of getting cooked in your new destination right after a really strong previous season. Plus teams in a division sometimes like swimming one another and can be disappointed when they are separated or the whole division is broken up (and the opposite, of course, is also true). TL;DR: winning the division and moving up out of it mean two different (if interrelated) things.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1216391.page

As per the above thread from last year, the times used for simulations are taken solely from dual (A) meets. That explains how they can know Division assignments for next year so soon after Divisionals, i.e., performance at Divisionals has no bearing on Division assignments for the following year. It does matter for final Division standings and is a last chance for a kid to improve times for individual all-stars.

So, no. Divisionals is not the “last chance” for a team to influence their Divisional assignment for the next year.

Interesting. Can you clarify the bold above? Does a team's final division standing have any bearing at all on division assignments the following year?

From the MCSL handbook: “ A team’s final place in the division is the sum of its dual meet, relay meet and division championship meet points.”

I haven’t been able to find anything in the handbook about how they assign divisions for the following year, so I’m going by last year’s thread (the one I linked). If the latter is true, then next year’s division assignments are based on the simulations run using data from dual meets only, not division championships. And even that data apparently doesn’t take into account all times from dual meets, only some.

If anyone has a valid source for how MCSL determines division assignments for the next year, I’d love to see it!

But why does a team's final place in the division matter if computer simulations will determine whether the team moves up or down? If you stay in your division, then your preseason rank is irrelevant to how you actually perform.

Anonymous wrote:Same PP: But ignore the second occurrence of the word "three," which is a typo (see pg. 12 here: https://mcsl.org/content/documents/2025/2025MCSLGreenBook.pdf).

Thank you!! I knew it had to be in the Green Book somewhere. Very helpful.

Same PP: But ignore the second occurrence of the word "three," which is a typo (see pg. 12 here: https://mcsl.org/content/documents/2025/2025MCSLGreenBook.pdf).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1216391.page

As per the above thread from last year, the times used for simulations are taken solely from dual (A) meets. That explains how they can know Division assignments for next year so soon after Divisionals, i.e., performance at Divisionals has no bearing on Division assignments for the following year. It does matter for final Division standings and is a last chance for a kid to improve times for individual all-stars.

So, no. Divisionals is not the “last chance” for a team to influence their Divisional assignment for the next year.

Interesting. Can you clarify the bold above? Does a team's final division standing have any bearing at all on division assignments the following year?

From the MCSL handbook: “ A team’s final place in the division is the sum of its dual meet, relay meet and division championship meet points.”

I haven’t been able to find anything in the handbook about how they assign divisions for the following year, so I’m going by last year’s thread (the one I linked). If the latter is true, then next year’s division assignments are based on the simulations run using data from dual meets only, not division championships. And even that data apparently doesn’t take into account all times from dual meets, only some.

If anyone has a valid source for how MCSL determines division assignments for the next year, I’d love to see it!

See the top of this page: https://mcsl.org/content/documents/2025/2025-preliminary-divisions.pdf

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1216391.page

As per the above thread from last year, the times used for simulations are taken solely from dual (A) meets. That explains how they can know Division assignments for next year so soon after Divisionals, i.e., performance at Divisionals has no bearing on Division assignments for the following year. It does matter for final Division standings and is a last chance for a kid to improve times for individual all-stars.

So, no. Divisionals is not the “last chance” for a team to influence their Divisional assignment for the next year.

Interesting. Can you clarify the bold above? Does a team's final division standing have any bearing at all on division assignments the following year?

From the MCSL handbook: “ A team’s final place in the division is the sum of its dual meet, relay meet and division championship meet points.”

I haven’t been able to find anything in the handbook about how they assign divisions for the following year, so I’m going by last year’s thread (the one I linked). If the latter is true, then next year’s division assignments are based on the simulations run using data from dual meets only, not division championships. And even that data apparently doesn’t take into account all times from dual meets, only some.

If anyone has a valid source for how MCSL determines division assignments for the next year, I’d love to see it!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1216391.page

As per the above thread from last year, the times used for simulations are taken solely from dual (A) meets. That explains how they can know Division assignments for next year so soon after Divisionals, i.e., performance at Divisionals has no bearing on Division assignments for the following year. It does matter for final Division standings and is a last chance for a kid to improve times for individual all-stars.

So, no. Divisionals is not the “last chance” for a team to influence their Divisional assignment for the next year.

Interesting. Can you clarify the bold above? Does a team's final division standing have any bearing at all on division assignments the following year?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

https://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/1216391.page

As per the above thread from last year, the times used for simulations are taken solely from dual (A) meets. That explains how they can know Division assignments for next year so soon after Divisionals, i.e., performance at Divisionals has no bearing on Division assignments for the following year. It does matter for final Division standings and is a last chance for a kid to improve times for individual all-stars.

So, no. Divisionals is not the “last chance” for a team to influence their Divisional assignment for the next year.

Anonymous wrote:MCSL IAS goes deeper than 16 because if you have kids with top seeds in 3 or more events they need to scratch out of some of them.

True, MCSL is top 16 who pick the event. Backstoke for example could go into #20s+ fastest swimmers over the whole season. But the qualifying times for MCSL come from over as many as 6 “A” meets to get their 16 + 2 alternates for IAS.

Those MCSL fastest times for IAS are not from a single meet like it sounds like in NVSL.

NVSL seems like prelims/finals format from a single meet’s times (divisionals), and not even the fastest swimmers by event potentially if swimmers limited to 2 swims in divisionals.

Wonder if NVSL swimmers like that they have one swim in divisionals to make IAS. That’s more like club swimming to me.

To each his own. I would pick MCSL format is I had a choice.

MCSL IAS goes deeper than 16 because if you have kids with top seeds in 3 or more events they need to scratch out of some of them.

So NVSL divisionals are kinda like the prelims session to IAS, which is the finals session?

In NVSL, a limited number of swimmers (those swimming their respective NVSL divisional meets) get one swim to make it to NVSL IAS? Is that accurate? So a team with 3 or 4 of the fastest 16 freestyle swimmers in all of NVSL, only gets to possibly send 2 swimmers to IAS to swim free, based on how they swim in one meet the whole season?

MCSL takes any top times swum in 5 A Meets plus the MCSL divisional super-dual meet or whatever you want to call it. Swimmers could get up to 6 meets to finish with a top 16 time for the season to make it to MCSL IAS.

I’m sure NVSL, like MCSL, will never change how they do things, but curious if swimmers in NVSL would rather do it the way MCSL does it? I don’t think many MCSL swimmers would prefer the NVSL approach to IAS.

(Or maybe I am not understanding what is happening with NVSL IAS.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:MCSL Divisionals is the last team meet of the season, in effect a mega-A meet where points count big time in the final division standings, and also where kids can post one last all-star time before the individual all-stat meet is seeded. This is very different from NVSL.

Divisionals is the last chance for a team to get promoted out of its division or avoid relegation to a lower division. And yes, this matters to many swimmers and their parents.

DP - I thought MCSL assigned Divisions for next year based on some kind of elaborate simulation of all teams competing against each other. It’s not based on points during the season - we were undefeated last year, won relay carnival AND Divisionals and stayed in the same Division.

That is correct, but two things can be true at once. Divisionals is the last chance for many swimmers to post their best times, which in turn are used for the simulations. If your team won everything, I'm surprised you didn't move up, but then again, you could already be in Divisions B-E, where there may be less upward movement (I understand the upper divisions are like the top of a pyramid).

Anonymous wrote:And that’s determined at divisionals?

Not in MCSL.

And that’s determined at divisionals?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really hope our coaches make the lineup in a way that maximizes the number of kids who can swim. I have one kid who could swim any event at divisionals based on their ladder spots and one who is just outside the top spots. I am fine with my one kid not necessarily swimming one of their best or favorite events if it gives someone else a chance. For example, putting them in fly or breast instead of free. Likewise it would be nice if the top kids in my other child’s age group, who are in all star range for 3-4 events, swam a possibly less preferred stroke in order to allow my kid to have a spot in one event.

Wtf.

+1