Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:55
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:A large number of American Catholics reject papal authority when they don’t like what the Pope says. Pope Francis has been clear that communion should not be denied based on political belief- as politicized bishops tried to deny it to prominent Catholic democrats. Notably, Catholic democrats did not attempt to support policies with doctrine. They governed secularly. They did not contradict the Pope or Catholic teaching.
Vance twists scripture and contradicts the teaching of the church. For example:
Vice President JD Vance is getting schooled by theologians over his inverted theology expressed in a Jan. 29 interview on Fox News.
What Vance said: “There’s this old school — and I think it’s a very Christian concept, by the way — that you love your family and then you love your neighbor and then you love your community and then you love your fellow citizens and your own country, and then after that you can focus and prioritize the rest of the world.
“A lot of the far left has completely inverted that. They seem to hate the citizens of their own country and care more about people outside their own borders. That is no way to run a society. And I think the profound difference that Donald Trump brings to the leadership of this country is the simple concept of America First. It doesn’t mean you hate anybody else, it means that you have leadership. And President Trump has been very clear about this — that puts the interests of American citizens first. In the same way that the British prime minister should care about Brits and the French should care about the French, we have an American president who cares primarily about Americans, and that’s a very welcome change.”
Politics aside, numerous Christian theologians took to social media to point out the vice president — who is a conservative Catholic — misrepresented the teachings of Jesus and the Gospels.
“Actually no. This misses the point of Jesus’ Parable of the Good Samaritan.”
“Actually no,” wrote Jesuit priest and author James Martin. “This misses the point of Jesus’ Parable of the Good Samaritan (Lk 10: 25-37). After Jesus tells a lawyer that you should ‘love your neighbor as yourself,’ the lawyer asks him, ‘And who is my neighbor?
“In response, Jesus tells the story of a Jewish man who has been beaten by robbers and is lying by the side of the road. The man is helped not by those closest to him (a ‘priest’ and a ‘Levite’), but rather by a Samaritan. At the time, Jews and Samaritans would have considered one another enemies.
“So Jesus’ fundamental message is that everyone is your neighbor, and that it is not about helping just your family or those closest to you. It’s specifically about helping those who seem different, foreign, other. They are all our ‘neighbors.’
“But Jesus’ deeper point can only be understood from the point of view of the beaten man: Our ultimate salvation depends, as it did for that man, upon those whom we often consider to be the ‘stranger.’
Vance is strictly a politician. He doesn't give one crap about doctrine.
Here's what it is: Vance intertwining politics and Christian faith because it's the Christian/evangelical base the republicans feel obligated to pander to. They all have to reference their faith and God now. I don't know why he chose to convert to Catholicism; but he's just using the facade and manipulating terms and concepts to form Christian rationale to fit the politics and the administration's policies. He's banking on nobody knowing what the fancy Latin phrases and doctrinal concepts actually mean (and the few who do not having sufficient bully pulpit to correct him with the greater public). By spouting the terms, he comes off as knowledgeable and therefore credible. He's a hypocrite. He probably actually knows what the concept really means, but since it doesn't genuinely matter to him spiritually or faithfully, he is just manipulating it to fit the political narrative he needs.
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:40
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This question misunderstands the nature of the Catholic faith. The Pope is only considered infallible in very specific matters of church doctrine. His random thoughts about US politics are not that and hold no extra weight.
—I’m not Catholic, but I do have a basic education
This is the correct answer.
I'm not Catholic either, but this is all over my Threads feed for some reason (keep meaning to move to Blue Sky but not there yet). The Pope corrected Vance specifically on the Catholic doctrine of ordo amoris, that is, on Catholic theology not politics. Vance was arguing that being a Catholic means you should start with your narrow circle, then expand out to your countrymen, and only when their needs are met can you start to consider others like immigrants. No, the Pope said, ordo amoris means we need to "meditate constantly on the parable of the 'Good Samaritan,' that is, by medicating on the love that builds a fraternity open to all, without exception."
Yeah, Vance is wrong and also Vince isn’t really a Catholic he converted for politics. He didn’t even baptize his children, which is the number one thing you’re supposed to do as a catholic.
Ah, the "no true Catholic" fallacy.
It’s not that he’s a Catholic and doesn’t live the word that is the “no true catholic” fallacy
He literally became Catholic for political reasons and then never baptized his children.
I don't doubt you - I can't stand the guy and think he's a hypocrite. But if one is going to convert for political reasons, why to Catholicism? It is not really the driving denomination in politics.
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:39
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Except for conservative parishes, most Catholics are democrats so are fine with it. Remember Catholics are Irish, Italian and Latin American immigrants. We drink, have premarital sex and help the poor. There has been an uptick of conservatism in Catholicism but that’s a newer trend.
Latino Catholics tend to be more conservative/traditional.
I don't think you really are qualified to make these assertions. I'm Irish Catholic but did not have premarital sex. There is a lot of variation among the Catholics I know.
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:35
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Except for conservative parishes, most Catholics are democrats so are fine with it. Remember Catholics are Irish, Italian and Latin American immigrants. We drink, have premarital sex and help the poor. There has been an uptick of conservatism in Catholicism but that’s a newer trend.
Please back this up with some evidence. I'm Catholic, a democrat; but my two siblings are Catholic and republicans. Even in Arlington VA I know several republican Catholics (yes, it's a conservative diocese; but the people aren't).
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:31
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This question misunderstands the nature of the Catholic faith. The Pope is only considered infallible in very specific matters of church doctrine. His random thoughts about US politics are not that and hold no extra weight.
—I’m not Catholic, but I do have a basic education
This is the correct answer.
Yup. And abortion is moral doctrine, the Pope can't change the teaching on that even if he wanted. Immigration is considered prudential policy and his musings on it have no authority over policymakers.
Please explain the logic or lack thereof on why the Catholic Bishops do not actively oppose the death penalty in the same way that they oppose abortion. No non-Catholic gives a sh-t about the Catholic doctrine on the differences, as those are religious views (to which Catholics are entitled to hold). The real difference is abortion issues effects the mother and the fetus and is a personal decision. The death penalty is a state decision.
Catholics are against the death penalty.
+1 The Catholic Church is firm on its stance against the death penalty. Honestly, why do people who don’t have the first idea about Catholicism keep posting?
Such as yourself?
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"Preserving the common good of society requires rendering the aggressor unable to inflict harm. For this reason the traditional teaching of the Church has acknowledged as well-founded the right and duty of legitimate public authority to punish malefactors by means of penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime, not excluding, in cases of extreme gravity, the death penalty."
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:24
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:This question misunderstands the nature of the Catholic faith. The Pope is only considered infallible in very specific matters of church doctrine. His random thoughts about US politics are not that and hold no extra weight.
—I’m not Catholic, but I do have a basic education
This is the correct answer.
Yup. And abortion is moral doctrine, the Pope can't change the teaching on that even if he wanted. Immigration is considered prudential policy and his musings on it have no authority over policymakers.
Please explain the logic or lack thereof on why the Catholic Bishops do not actively oppose the death penalty in the same way that they oppose abortion. No non-Catholic gives a sh-t about the Catholic doctrine on the differences, as those are religious views (to which Catholics are entitled to hold). The real difference is abortion issues effects the mother and the fetus and is a personal decision. The death penalty is a state decision.
Catholics are against the death penalty.
Not all of them are. And the Church allows for capital punishment in certain situations.
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:20
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:As a practicing Catholic, I thought his remarks should have been kept "in house". He could have gone about it in many ways that might have been more effective in changing policy. Or changing Vance's mind but he had to do a public shaming. I thought it was hypocritical. When Obama was in office and deportations were at an all time high, he met with Obama to discuss climate. Now that it's Trump, he is splashing his views across the world. Smh
Is it the deportations per se and only that the Pope is disagreeing with? For me, it's not the deportation per se -- it's the treatment of the migrants. I assume the pope is concerned about the various policies, which result in a lack of compassion and respect in the treatment of vulnerable human beings.
Anonymous
02/18/2025 22:15
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about how Catholics are thinking about the current position of the Pope, which is decidedly against the Trump administration's immigration policies.
If you're Catholic and opposed legal abortion because the Catholic church was against it (although the government obviously supported it), are you now opposing these immigration policies for the same reason? And if not, how can you reconcile that with being Catholic?
Why does anyone need to reconcile this?
The Church advises examining your own conscience before voting....even though they clearly encourage voting a particular way according to one specific issue without blatantly stating it. They just always "suggest" that there are multiple priorities but one (abortion) overrides all the others. I don't vote that way; and even Pope Frances this time around noted that Americans had to choose the lesser of two evils. Well, for me, the lesser of two evils is the evil that checks more of the non-evil boxes, including compassion and charity; anti-death penalty; respect for all people; national security; civil rights; etc. The candidate who will support the most policies for the greatest common good. I'd rather err on the side of compassion than cruelty.
My siblings don't understand how I can "be Catholic and be a Democrat." I don't understand how they can be Catholic and Republican. People focus on the Church's stance on abortion - and completely ignore the fact that the church teaching has a whole segment on catholic social justice. I "reconcile" my differences by following the path that covers more of the social justice teaching, not just one issue.
Anonymous
02/15/2025 14:52
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about how Catholics are thinking about the current position of the Pope, which is decidedly against the Trump administration's immigration policies.
If you're Catholic and opposed legal abortion because the Catholic church was against it (although the government obviously supported it), are you now opposing these immigration policies for the same reason? And if not, how can you reconcile that with being Catholic?
We're not required to agree with the Pope's political opinions. I'm a Democrat but don't believe we need to let the entire third world flood our country to the detriment of our citizens.
Besides, it would be hypocritical to tell everyone not to impose religious beliefs about abortion on the country and then turn around and say we need to open the border because the Bible.
Except the Bible is silent on abortion and says to welcome the poor.
If we're going to ignore the whole "do not kill" thing, then I'd point out that Catholics are not a Sola Scriptura church and that abortion was condemned explicitly as far back as the Didache. Only recently have most of the mainline Protestant churches changed their teachings on abortion. It wasn't always a major political talking point but abortion being evil was universal across the board in Christianity until fairly recently.
It's either ignorant or disingenuous to claim that "welcome the poor" means the government should let in every single impoverished person until our social safety net collapses but at the same time, the Church's constant teaching against the evils of abortion should just be tossed aside. Either Catholic teaching should influence our votes or it shouldn't.
Also, the instructions given to welcome the poor, to give to the poor, etc, were always given to either individuals (sell all you have and give to the poor) or to theocratic governments (remember you were strangers in the land of Egypt). It's hardly the same situation. We're called to give to charity, not to vote for specific social programs. In fact, letting in waves of poor migrants impacts our ability to serve the poor who already live here.
Anonymous
02/15/2025 14:36
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about how Catholics are thinking about the current position of the Pope, which is decidedly against the Trump administration's immigration policies.
If you're Catholic and opposed legal abortion because the Catholic church was against it (although the government obviously supported it), are you now opposing these immigration policies for the same reason? And if not, how can you reconcile that with being Catholic?
We're not required to agree with the Pope's political opinions. I'm a Democrat but don't believe we need to let the entire third world flood our country to the detriment of our citizens.
Besides, it would be hypocritical to tell everyone not to impose religious beliefs about abortion on the country and then turn around and say we need to open the border because the Bible.
Except the Bible is silent on abortion and says to welcome the poor.
10 commandments say thou shall not kill. Presumably humans.
Bible also says to give 10% tithe to church. Do you? Or do we all need to get the specks out of our own eyes before pointing others' out?
Anonymous
02/15/2025 14:30
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about how Catholics are thinking about the current position of the Pope, which is decidedly against the Trump administration's immigration policies.
If you're Catholic and opposed legal abortion because the Catholic church was against it (although the government obviously supported it), are you now opposing these immigration policies for the same reason? And if not, how can you reconcile that with being Catholic?
We're not required to agree with the Pope's political opinions. I'm a Democrat but don't believe we need to let the entire third world flood our country to the detriment of our citizens.
Besides, it would be hypocritical to tell everyone not to impose religious beliefs about abortion on the country and then turn around and say we need to open the border because the Bible.
Except the Bible is silent on abortion and says to welcome the poor.
Anonymous
02/15/2025 09:08
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:I'm curious about how Catholics are thinking about the current position of the Pope, which is decidedly against the Trump administration's immigration policies.
If you're Catholic and opposed legal abortion because the Catholic church was against it (although the government obviously supported it), are you now opposing these immigration policies for the same reason? And if not, how can you reconcile that with being Catholic?
We're not required to agree with the Pope's political opinions. I'm a Democrat but don't believe we need to let the entire third world flood our country to the detriment of our citizens.
Besides, it would be hypocritical to tell everyone not to impose religious beliefs about abortion on the country and then turn around and say we need to open the border because the Bible.
Anonymous
02/13/2025 14:49
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There are Leonard Leo/Bannon extreme right Catholics and modern day real life Catholics
So are the "real life" ones pro-life? And do they stand with truth regarding biological sex?
What do you mean by "do they stand with truth"? Is this the same as "are they honest"? I'm not familiar with the phraseology and think it might be
language that fundamentalist Christians usually use among themselves.
I'm referencing catholic material.
Back to the original question, does it mean "are they honest?"
Anonymous
02/13/2025 13:59
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There are Leonard Leo/Bannon extreme right Catholics and modern day real life Catholics
So are the "real life" ones pro-life? And do they stand with truth regarding biological sex?
What do you mean by "do they stand with truth"? Is this the same as "are they honest"? I'm not familiar with the phraseology and think it might be
language that fundamentalist Christians usually use among themselves.
I'm referencing catholic material.
Anonymous
02/13/2025 13:59
Subject: How are Catholics reconciling Pope's disagreement with govt policies?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There are Leonard Leo/Bannon extreme right Catholics and modern day real life Catholics
So are the "real life" ones pro-life? And do they stand with truth regarding biological sex?
What do you mean by "do they stand with truth"? Is this the same as "are they honest"? I'm not familiar with the phraseology and think it might be
language that fundamentalist Christians usually use among themselves.
I just looked up "stand with truth" and all the references were to fundamentalist Christianity.
There's a catholic pronouncement on it in the last year