Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

It’s not that long ago. My grandmother had to drop out of school at 13 to work in a factory. People keep saying 14 but there’s no evidence he was having sex with her at 14. 16, yes, but that was the normal age even for well to do white women. That doesn’t excuse his major complicity in the slave system and the fact that he explicitly saw reproduction of enslaved people are a capitalist endeavor — but he wasn’t a pedophile and people acting like he was are just historically inaccurate. He did enough sh!tty things—we don’t need to make up extra things. It’s also somewhat interesting that it appears Sally was the only person he was sleeping with, and apparently the only enslaved person he slept with (unlike some slave holders). Clearly in his mind he viewed himself as different from (better than) other slave holders. We’ll never know if Sally thought he had any redeemable qualities at all — her ovoice has been totally erased. Her descendants knew they were descended from him, so we know she thought it was important for them to know that, although there are clearly a lot of complicated reasons why they might be the case. We also know that Jefferson’s legitimate children seemed to know Sally’s status, which is a little unusual.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. She went to Paris to watch his children when she was 14. But she wasn’t pregnant with his first child until she was 16, which would have been a pretty normal age for a girl to be married and pregnant in the 18th century. If he started sleeping with her at 14, she probably would have been pregnant almost immediately. It’s all creepy but hard to judge how creepy it is. In the 1&th century, married women (even white) had no legal personage under the system of coverture — their husban owned all their property, they could not sue in their own name, it was legally impossible for a husband to rape his wife because her body was his property. So it wasn’t nearly as bad as slavery, but it wasn’t exactly what we’d consider a relationship of equals in which the women could consent to sex. Arguably, nearly all sex in the 18th century was coercive and non-consensual. Sally actually could have freed herself in Paris, under the laws of France at the time. She negotiated for freedom for her future children as a condition of returning to America with Jefferson. So she definitely had some agency in the relationship.

Another thing many people don’t know about Jefferson—his initial draft of the Declaration included an indictment of transnational slave trade — basically saying how terrible it was that England had saddled America with this awful system. He would have abolished the slave trade immediately. Other members, who had a lot of money in the slave trade, forced him to take it out.

My take on Jefferson is that he was a very very smart person with a high degree of cognitive dissonance that allowed him to live a very comfortable lifestyle under a system that he found to be abhorrent, on a cognitive level. It’s a good reminder to all of us to think about all the places where we compromise our values in order to live comfortable lives where we get along well with our social circles.

Id also say that the argument that slavery was widely accepted , so we should give him a pass on that, is bunk. Sam Adam’ was an abolitionist. So was Thomas Paine. A lot of the founding fathers were. John Dickinson freed his enslaved people after the revolution, and there were many others that did as well. (I watched a great Finding Your Roots where one person traced the lineage back to a community in Virginia of enslaved people freed after the revolution.). Jefferson himself wrote about the evils of slavery, but then somehow managed to convince himself that it was okay for him to keep people enslaved, and even on his death I think he only ended up freeing his own children. Does that make him worse, because he knew it was wrong and did it anyway? Arguably yes.

Personally, I don’t think there’s value in canceling him. There’s more value in discussing all the complexity of him. I think it’s olay to remember the good things he brought to this country, while also acknowledging he was no saint and did some terrible things.

Unlike someone like stonewall jackson or Jefferson Davis — I’m fine just canceling them.

Agree. The lack of imagination by people is disappointing. There are tons of things we are doing now that future generations will likely look down on us for: our destruction of the environment (if you aren’t farming off the grid and living in a sod house then you are a part of the problem), eating animals and factory farming, buying products made by de facto slaves in developing nations, the objectification of women… I could go on and on. I think TJ was about as decent a man as a man in the South in his time could be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

IOW, she had slightly fewer options than his wife. But she wasn't powerless, she had options and made decisions.

She was powerless. If she stayed in France she would never see her mother or other siblings again. She was 16 at the time. She traded her future children’s freedom to return as a slave where she lived in a room under the porch. Jefferson wanted her back with him so he could keep having sex with her. He didn’t love her. He never freed her. Not in France, manipulated her with a false choice to come back, she had 6 more kids with him, she slept under the porch, until HE died.

She was 75% white. She was a child. Didn’t matter. Jefferson was vile.

She had choices which means she had power. More than most other enslaved people (and more than some white women). When you dismiss that, you are denying her agency. (And Jefferson was also restricted in how he could treat her, as well. He was not free from the rules of society either.)

Anonymous wrote:https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/

This is a great article that demonstrates how very intentionally brutal and financially motivated Jefferson was. I highly recommend reading it. The disillusion meant surrounding Jefferson really came to ahead when his descendants finally had to admit that Sally Hemings was in fact, the mother of multiple children fathered by Jefferson.

Sally was an enslaved person; consent does not even enter the conversation. She did not wish to leave France and only did so to secure freedom for some of her family. And who were her family? They were Jeffersons family as well. Not only did he enslave Sally, but Sally was his dead wives, half sister. The Hemings family related in multiple way to Jefferson and his wife, yet, Jefferson subjected them to the same wicked punishments and sold them off as well. His flesh and blood.

Well, it may not be fair to compare Jefferson to somebody living today. It’s certainly fair to compare him to George Washington and other of their contemporaries who recognized the evils of slavery. Washington wanted to end slavery and freed his own slaves. He recognized the dependence of the southern economy on slaves and believed the best way to end slavery was to reform the southern economy.

If you go to the library of Virginia and comb through documents of their contemporaries, you will find many, many manumission documents and wills devising freedom, and they cite the evil inherent in slavery.

Jefferson wrote beautifully about beautiful ideals. Ideals that would only be available to white men. Ideals that he did not live. Now, more than ever it is important to understand the truth about our history and development as a nation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

+1

So tired of people elevating these historical figures and not speaking the truth of who they were outloud.

Anonymous wrote:I am a millennial who went to UVA so we obviously grew up admiring him. Right now I am reading a biography of him, Thomas Jefferson: The Art of Power.

I am obsessed. He was so smart and well educated and ahead of his time in so many ways but I know he is considered controversial today since he was a rich plantation owner who also had a "relationship" with one of his slaves.

I am curious what people think of him these days.

Anonymous wrote:Horrifically racist. We need to reconsider anything he was involved with.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

IOW, she had slightly fewer options than his wife. But she wasn't powerless, she had options and made decisions.

She was powerless. If she stayed in France she would never see her mother or other siblings again. She was 16 at the time. She traded her future children’s freedom to return as a slave where she lived in a room under the porch. Jefferson wanted her back with him so he could keep having sex with her. He didn’t love her. He never freed her. Not in France, manipulated her with a false choice to come back, she had 6 more kids with him, she slept under the porch, until HE died.

She was 75% white. She was a child. Didn’t matter. Jefferson was vile.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

IOW, she had slightly fewer options than his wife. But she wasn't powerless, she had options and made decisions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What’s to know?

He’s a dead, white, male, cisgender, slave-owner. Full stop.

+1

So tired of people elevating these historical figures and not speaking the truth of who they were outloud.

Anonymous wrote:[img]

Anonymous wrote:https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-dark-side-of-thomas-jefferson-35976004/

This is a great article that demonstrates how very intentionally brutal and financially motivated Jefferson was. I highly recommend reading it. The disillusion meant surrounding Jefferson really came to ahead when his descendants finally had to admit that Sally Hemings was in fact, the mother of multiple children fathered by Jefferson.

Sally was an enslaved person; consent does not even enter the conversation. She did not wish to leave France and only did so to secure freedom for some of her family. And who were her family? They were Jeffersons family as well. Not only did he enslave Sally, but Sally was his dead wives, half sister. The Hemings family related in multiple way to Jefferson and his wife, yet, Jefferson subjected them to the same wicked punishments and sold them off as well. His flesh and blood.

Well, it may not be fair to compare Jefferson to somebody living today. It’s certainly fair to compare him to George Washington and other of their contemporaries who recognized the evils of slavery. Washington wanted to end slavery and freed his own slaves. He recognized the dependence of the southern economy on slaves and believed the best way to end slavery was to reform the southern economy.

If you go to the library of Virginia and comb through documents of their contemporaries, you will find many, many manumission documents and wills devising freedom, and they cite the evil inherent in slavery.

Jefferson wrote beautifully about beautiful ideals. Ideals that would only be available to white men. Ideals that he did not live. Now, more than ever it is important to understand the truth about our history and development as a nation.

That is a great article — I couldn’t stop reading! So sad to think about those boys and the missing nail stock, or tje father watching his teen daughters being sold away from him and never find them. I would sort of love A Finding Your Roots genealogy study that manages to find the descendants of that man’s daughters. I wonder if that could be done.

It’s a small issue but I think you have the chronology wrong on Hemings and France. Her children were not born at that point so she wasn’t forced to return to America to obtain the freedom of enslaved family members. She certainly had enslaved siblings at that point but I don’t think she got their freedom — only that of her unborn children. From today’s perspective it’s a weird choice to make but I guess choosing between being a free but penniless person in 18tj century France (which almost certainly meant prostitution) was less attractive than having enslaved children who would occupy a privileged position and ultimately be free, with one of the most famous men in America. She was very savvy to use the negotiating power she did have, since ultimately he was such an A$$ about freeing other enslaved people that he supposedly valued.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

IOW, she had slightly fewer options than his wife. But she wasn't powerless, she had options and made decisions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jefferson started sleeping with Hemmings when she was 14. I can't even with these "he was a complicated man" posters. FOURTEEN.

In Shakespeare's time people were married at 14. FOURTEEN. Yeah, imagining time used to be different is difficult for some people. My great grandfather used to work at 7. SEVEN - and that's why this country implemented labor laws. Geez, times were different. Did you know women used to be treated like property? I know history is crazy. In the future we will be the crazy ones.

She was his slave, his wife's slave (and half sister) that he inherited when his wife died. I don't care if it was 1787 BC, all of it is disgusting and the Jefferson worship is awful.

Do you think you're witty, downplaying this crap?

Put that way, it sounds almost biblical.

We have had words for these relationships forever, which means these relationships have been around forever. Mistress, leman, affair partner, less charitably adulteress. Consort, concubine, placee. Etc.

Here’s the word you’re missing: slave. She was his slave. She was his 14 year old slave.

She had a relationship very similar to a placee, although not as formal. You can erase that, but it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

She was not a free woman. He literally owned her, as if she were livestock.

Nothing in her life was truly her own choice, including her sexual relationships. Or pregnancies.