Anonymous
09/05/2024 22:26
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:so everyone isn't the same robot STEM kid.
seriously......
balance. a great American college experience is based on diversity of life experiences, thought, interests, background, majors, etc.
also, it allows them to pick students they KNOW will succeed (get jobs, not drop out, etc)
lastly, holistic admissions allows them to make sure they have students in ALL departments.
But why does this matter? I ask this as a engineering graduate from a large university. They didn't care about a holistic class.
The rest of the student body, does.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 22:23
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:All the TO talk makes me wonder - what's the point of creating a specific class to your standards, whatever those standards are? Just a prestige thing?
I don't see how this is a prestige thing. Exposure to peers with a diversity of backgrounds, thoughts, geographies, etc is crucial to an enriching educational experience.
What you are describing is a white people thing. Most minorities have already co-existed in environments diverse in the examples you give. You make it seem so precious and rare. Maybe if you stopped segregating k-12 and making your kids live in your life bubble, they could worry as adults about more important things such as getting the best education they can. Now if you're talking about international students from around the world who have the same academic ability, then sure.
You have no idea what race I am or my kids are or where my kids live or have gone to school but nice try.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 22:20
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:When you only have 1500-1700 kids per class like most small elite universities, you want to have an interesting mix. You don't want everyone to be a CS nerd, pre-med, or future consultant.
That's what they say, but the reality is that it means "we want more blacks, we don't want too many Asians". That is the working definition of "interesting".
Tons and tons of interesting Asians. They just have more interesting hobbies and academic interests than you and your kid.
And none of them are stem majors.
This is not about what I think. This is about what elite college admissions committees clearly think, as demonstrated by their actions. They simply don’t want “too many” Asians. Boring!
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:59
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Colleges want students in all areas of study. Education in general is greatly benefited by having multifaceted students and professors. It is enriching for all students to be exposed to students with many differences in background and experiences. College isn’t meant to be a technical trade school with a narrow focus.
And some colleges really like kids who have both left brain and right brain excellence (thinking of Northwestern).
Yes, Northwestern always has and has encouraged it.
Similarly, U of Rochester with their Cluster system (core curriculum that allows you to study what you love) does something very similar. IMO, well balanced people who have interests in several areas are the ones who will go farthest in life and can adapt to what life throws at them
It’s called liberal arts and has been around for centuries.
Well aware of that. Rochester takes it to a new level. DO you understand their cluster system?
They have STEM, Social Sciences and Humanities. Your major covers one area. Then you need 12 credits in each of the other remaining areas, but those 12 credits are within the SAME area and have a focus. So it allows you to go more in-depth and focus on what you truly like/love.
Otherwise you need required freshman writing course and a sophomore writing course for your major (all engineering takes the same one, all math majors take a math one, etc). No other required courses outside of your major.
For ex: my engineering major, took freshman writing seminar (Taylor swift something, very in demand topic), engineering sophomore writing, all the major courses and what's left: 12 credits of dance and 12 credits of Psychology. Nothing else. No "history" or "philosophy" or anything else required. They get to focus in depth on subjects that matter to them. Makes learning more fun and interesting.
Most LA/Humantiies majors have a double major and 1-2 minors or a single major and 2-3 minors. Why? Because you are 50-60% to a minor with your "cluster" and LA/Hum/SS majors have less "major required courses" and more free electives, so this allows a kid to focus even more in-depth in a few subjects if they so desire. Or they can just take random courses. But numbers show that most of those kids pick up minors or another major in something they love/interests them.
That's very different than being told to take a normal college core curriculum. This is much more open
UMiami has something similar. It's called cognates.
My kid loves this concept! They were going to dance no matter what, now they get to take courses for credits doing something they love. At least one course has to include some writing/history, but for dance that is typically very easy and interesting and involves 1-2 paragraph answers, not a 10 page essay like a normal history course. My kid would rather spend their time writing papers for engineering write ups and in their major than for a basic history course. so it's a win win, and obviously for them a really easy A that requires little time outside of class to complete (also important when in engineering)
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:55
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Colleges want students in all areas of study. Education in general is greatly benefited by having multifaceted students and professors. It is enriching for all students to be exposed to students with many differences in background and experiences. College isn’t meant to be a technical trade school with a narrow focus.
And some colleges really like kids who have both left brain and right brain excellence (thinking of Northwestern).
Yes, Northwestern always has and has encouraged it.
Similarly, U of Rochester with their Cluster system (core curriculum that allows you to study what you love) does something very similar. IMO, well balanced people who have interests in several areas are the ones who will go farthest in life and can adapt to what life throws at them
It’s called liberal arts and has been around for centuries.
Well aware of that. Rochester takes it to a new level. DO you understand their cluster system?
They have STEM, Social Sciences and Humanities. Your major covers one area. Then you need 12 credits in each of the other remaining areas, but those 12 credits are within the SAME area and have a focus. So it allows you to go more in-depth and focus on what you truly like/love.
Otherwise you need required freshman writing course and a sophomore writing course for your major (all engineering takes the same one, all math majors take a math one, etc). No other required courses outside of your major.
For ex: my engineering major, took freshman writing seminar (Taylor swift something, very in demand topic), engineering sophomore writing, all the major courses and what's left: 12 credits of dance and 12 credits of Psychology. Nothing else. No "history" or "philosophy" or anything else required. They get to focus in depth on subjects that matter to them. Makes learning more fun and interesting.
Most LA/Humantiies majors have a double major and 1-2 minors or a single major and 2-3 minors. Why? Because you are 50-60% to a minor with your "cluster" and LA/Hum/SS majors have less "major required courses" and more free electives, so this allows a kid to focus even more in-depth in a few subjects if they so desire. Or they can just take random courses. But numbers show that most of those kids pick up minors or another major in something they love/interests them.
That's very different than being told to take a normal college core curriculum. This is much more open
UMiami has something similar. It's called cognates.
Great! Was not aware there were others with similar systems. I think it's an excellent idea at any school. More in-depth learning in areas students are interested in. That's exactly what college should be about
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:28
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Colleges want students in all areas of study. Education in general is greatly benefited by having multifaceted students and professors. It is enriching for all students to be exposed to students with many differences in background and experiences. College isn’t meant to be a technical trade school with a narrow focus.
And some colleges really like kids who have both left brain and right brain excellence (thinking of Northwestern).
Yes, Northwestern always has and has encouraged it.
Similarly, U of Rochester with their Cluster system (core curriculum that allows you to study what you love) does something very similar. IMO, well balanced people who have interests in several areas are the ones who will go farthest in life and can adapt to what life throws at them
It’s called liberal arts and has been around for centuries.
Well aware of that. Rochester takes it to a new level. DO you understand their cluster system?
They have STEM, Social Sciences and Humanities. Your major covers one area. Then you need 12 credits in each of the other remaining areas, but those 12 credits are within the SAME area and have a focus. So it allows you to go more in-depth and focus on what you truly like/love.
Otherwise you need required freshman writing course and a sophomore writing course for your major (all engineering takes the same one, all math majors take a math one, etc). No other required courses outside of your major.
For ex: my engineering major, took freshman writing seminar (Taylor swift something, very in demand topic), engineering sophomore writing, all the major courses and what's left: 12 credits of dance and 12 credits of Psychology. Nothing else. No "history" or "philosophy" or anything else required. They get to focus in depth on subjects that matter to them. Makes learning more fun and interesting.
Most LA/Humantiies majors have a double major and 1-2 minors or a single major and 2-3 minors. Why? Because you are 50-60% to a minor with your "cluster" and LA/Hum/SS majors have less "major required courses" and more free electives, so this allows a kid to focus even more in-depth in a few subjects if they so desire. Or they can just take random courses. But numbers show that most of those kids pick up minors or another major in something they love/interests them.
That's very different than being told to take a normal college core curriculum. This is much more open
UMiami has something similar. It's called cognates.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:27
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:so everyone isn't the same robot STEM kid.
seriously......
balance. a great American college experience is based on diversity of life experiences, thought, interests, background, majors, etc.
also, it allows them to pick students they KNOW will succeed (get jobs, not drop out, etc)
lastly, holistic admissions allows them to make sure they have students in ALL departments.
But why does this matter? I ask this as a engineering graduate from a large university. They didn't care about a holistic class.
so maybe you weren't at a selective school (yes, i get a selective major)....but a large flagship doesn't care about "holistic" admissions bc their mission is to educate the state's people.
private colleges have different missions.
MIT doesn't care about holistic - they look at academics and athletes. And live to tell the tale
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:20
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Colleges want students in all areas of study. Education in general is greatly benefited by having multifaceted students and professors. It is enriching for all students to be exposed to students with many differences in background and experiences. College isn’t meant to be a technical trade school with a narrow focus.
And some colleges really like kids who have both left brain and right brain excellence (thinking of Northwestern).
Yes, Northwestern always has and has encouraged it.
Similarly, U of Rochester with their Cluster system (core curriculum that allows you to study what you love) does something very similar. IMO, well balanced people who have interests in several areas are the ones who will go farthest in life and can adapt to what life throws at them
It’s called liberal arts and has been around for centuries.
Well aware of that. Rochester takes it to a new level. DO you understand their cluster system?
They have STEM, Social Sciences and Humanities. Your major covers one area. Then you need 12 credits in each of the other remaining areas, but those 12 credits are within the SAME area and have a focus. So it allows you to go more in-depth and focus on what you truly like/love.
Otherwise you need required freshman writing course and a sophomore writing course for your major (all engineering takes the same one, all math majors take a math one, etc). No other required courses outside of your major.
For ex: my engineering major, took freshman writing seminar (Taylor swift something, very in demand topic), engineering sophomore writing, all the major courses and what's left: 12 credits of dance and 12 credits of Psychology. Nothing else. No "history" or "philosophy" or anything else required. They get to focus in depth on subjects that matter to them. Makes learning more fun and interesting.
Most LA/Humantiies majors have a double major and 1-2 minors or a single major and 2-3 minors. Why? Because you are 50-60% to a minor with your "cluster" and LA/Hum/SS majors have less "major required courses" and more free electives, so this allows a kid to focus even more in-depth in a few subjects if they so desire. Or they can just take random courses. But numbers show that most of those kids pick up minors or another major in something they love/interests them.
That's very different than being told to take a normal college core curriculum. This is much more open
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:12
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:so everyone isn't the same robot STEM kid.
seriously......
balance. a great American college experience is based on diversity of life experiences, thought, interests, background, majors, etc.
also, it allows them to pick students they KNOW will succeed (get jobs, not drop out, etc)
lastly, holistic admissions allows them to make sure they have students in ALL departments.
But why does this matter? I ask this as a engineering graduate from a large university. They didn't care about a holistic class.
Of course they did. They offer way more than just engineering...you have to admit kids that want to study all the things they offer. They also need kids that can play in the marching band, play sports, participate in theatre, etc.
This. A university needs students in a variety of majors that do a variety of things.
You can do that without holistic admissions. All of europe manage to do this without holistic admissions.
Europe is not the US. Completely different population. This is the dumbest statement I have read on this thread.
Yup!
All of Europe managed this because they tracked the kids back at age 12/13 based on a one day test. If you did top notch, you are tracked for stem/medical/law, if so-so and are considered college material you get the background for humanities/social sciences, if not good enough, you will graduate HS and be on track for a trade school. Good luck getting on a different track unless you are wealthy and can afford elite privates.
So yes, Europe tracked kids back when they were 12. They don't allow you to just select your major when you are 18.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:09
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Colleges want students in all areas of study. Education in general is greatly benefited by having multifaceted students and professors. It is enriching for all students to be exposed to students with many differences in background and experiences. College isn’t meant to be a technical trade school with a narrow focus.
And some colleges really like kids who have both left brain and right brain excellence (thinking of Northwestern).
Yes, Northwestern always has and has encouraged it.
Similarly, U of Rochester with their Cluster system (core curriculum that allows you to study what you love) does something very similar. IMO, well balanced people who have interests in several areas are the ones who will go farthest in life and can adapt to what life throws at them
It’s called liberal arts and has been around for centuries.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:09
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:so everyone isn't the same robot STEM kid.
seriously......
balance. a great American college experience is based on diversity of life experiences, thought, interests, background, majors, etc.
also, it allows them to pick students they KNOW will succeed (get jobs, not drop out, etc)
lastly, holistic admissions allows them to make sure they have students in ALL departments.
But why does this matter? I ask this as a engineering graduate from a large university. They didn't care about a holistic class.
so maybe you weren't at a selective school (yes, i get a selective major)....but a large flagship doesn't care about "holistic" admissions bc their mission is to educate the state's people.
private colleges have different missions.
The reason a large flagship "doesn't care" is because they get a diverse class by virtue of being a big state school. I went to a large state flagship in the mid/late 90s and there were people from all races, nationalities, sexual orientations, socioeconomic backgrounds, academic interests, etc. My college friend group is the most diverse group I'm part of (more than may HS friends, work friends, mom friends, etc.). Your "selective" private college doesn't have a different mission - it needs to be more proactive in recruiting a diverse student body or else it'd end up being overwhelmingly wealthy and white.
Correct that to "overwhelmingly wealthy and white or asian" and I'd agree.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:08
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:A lot have already said similar things, but to me, holistic class design is important because college is about so much more than classes and attaining an education in the classroom.
You want diversity to draw out the best from as many people as possible.
At end of my daughter's freshman year, I helped with moveout/stuff to storage and then offered to take whomever was around/avaialbe of her friends to dinner. Got to meet 7 of her best friends (still friends 1.5 years later). Those kids were discussing what books they wanted to read over the summer, along with other stuff (the major introvert had a longer book list but it was interesting). But just genuinely smart, interesting, passionate about their interests kids.
9 Months before you never would have guessed this group of 8+ kids would become lifelong friends.
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:03
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Colleges want students in all areas of study. Education in general is greatly benefited by having multifaceted students and professors. It is enriching for all students to be exposed to students with many differences in background and experiences. College isn’t meant to be a technical trade school with a narrow focus.
And some colleges really like kids who have both left brain and right brain excellence (thinking of Northwestern).
Yes, Northwestern always has and has encouraged it.
Similarly, U of Rochester with their Cluster system (core curriculum that allows you to study what you love) does something very similar. IMO, well balanced people who have interests in several areas are the ones who will go farthest in life and can adapt to what life throws at them
Anonymous
09/05/2024 19:02
Subject: Re:Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:One thing that’s missing- most elite schools can’t support 100% of their classes being the same 3 majors. They need people to subscribe to their other departments.
It’s also good to have students with excellence in a lot of different areas. To be Frank, few people get famous off of engineering or science even at the elite level, so you wanna cast the net wide for the highest probability of getting an impactful, important alum
Holistic admissions doesn't mean not admitting to the same 3 majors. It means admitting a variety of students to those 3 majors.
No it’s also a population control element. Someone has to be in the classics department, even if they’re lower tier than the CS majors. Same with area studies.
Exactly! Otherwise the classics dept will dwindle and cease to exist. My STEM kid (Engineering) is at a school with 6K undergrads. About 40-50% of friends are STEM based, but at differing levels. Others are cringing at having to take a college math course and my kid is tutoring several. some are linguistics, others are economics/data science, others are neurophsyc (or some variety), and many have other secondary interests, like theater, music, dance, etc which they explore for 10+ hours per week just like they did in HS. These kids are smart, interesting and genuinely passionate about what they study/do. I think that is a plus for being at college versus only knowing other CS/Engineering majors. Or only knowing English majors
Anonymous
09/05/2024 18:45
Subject: Why such an emphasis on holistically building a class?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:All the TO talk makes me wonder - what's the point of creating a specific class to your standards, whatever those standards are? Just a prestige thing?
I don't see how this is a prestige thing. Exposure to peers with a diversity of backgrounds, thoughts, geographies, etc is crucial to an enriching educational experience.
What you are describing is a white people thing. Most minorities have already co-existed in environments diverse in the examples you give. You make it seem so precious and rare. Maybe if you stopped segregating k-12 and making your kids live in your life bubble, they could worry as adults about more important things such as getting the best education they can. Now if you're talking about international students from around the world who have the same academic ability, then sure.