Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

The best parents know to ignore these types of judgements from insecure people. Nobody should be basing their parenting decisions based on what other parents think.

You’re right. They should listen to experts who say not to use these. But that would be inconvenient for you.

A quick Google will show you that there is not a consensus among experts regarding this.

It lines up that a quick google search is the extent of your research on this topic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

The best parents know to ignore these types of judgements from insecure people. Nobody should be basing their parenting decisions based on what other parents think.

You’re right. They should listen to experts who say not to use these. But that would be inconvenient for you.

A quick Google will show you that there is not a consensus among experts regarding this.

And even most of the experts who say they "hate" them will acknowledge that there are settings in which they make sense and will help keep children safe.

The problem is that people do poorly with nuance so when you say "hey don't rely on puddle jumpers on their own to keep your kids safe in the pool -- you need to enroll them in swimming lessons and ensure they get lots of practice in the water without flotation devices and also you need to closely supervise your kids around water at all times no matter what" what many people get is "puddle jumpers cause drownings."

There are also a number of parents of kids who have drowned who choose to emphasize the dangers associated with puddle jumpers (when used irresponsibly) while gliding past the fact that their kids were often left unattended with access to a pool. It's a terrible situation and I get why parents seek to avoid thinking about that but the truth is that puddle jumpers are NOT the main reason kids drown in backyard pools.

Lazy excuses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

The best parents know to ignore these types of judgements from insecure people. Nobody should be basing their parenting decisions based on what other parents think.

You’re right. They should listen to experts who say not to use these. But that would be inconvenient for you.

A quick Google will show you that there is not a consensus among experts regarding this.

And even most of the experts who say they "hate" them will acknowledge that there are settings in which they make sense and will help keep children safe.

The problem is that people do poorly with nuance so when you say "hey don't rely on puddle jumpers on their own to keep your kids safe in the pool -- you need to enroll them in swimming lessons and ensure they get lots of practice in the water without flotation devices and also you need to closely supervise your kids around water at all times no matter what" what many people get is "puddle jumpers cause drownings."

There are also a number of parents of kids who have drowned who choose to emphasize the dangers associated with puddle jumpers (when used irresponsibly) while gliding past the fact that their kids were often left unattended with access to a pool. It's a terrible situation and I get why parents seek to avoid thinking about that but the truth is that puddle jumpers are NOT the main reason kids drown in backyard pools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

The best parents know to ignore these types of judgements from insecure people. Nobody should be basing their parenting decisions based on what other parents think.

You’re right. They should listen to experts who say not to use these. But that would be inconvenient for you.

A quick Google will show you that there is not a consensus among experts regarding this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

The best parents know to ignore these types of judgements from insecure people. Nobody should be basing their parenting decisions based on what other parents think.

You’re right. They should listen to experts who say not to use these. But that would be inconvenient for you.

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

The best parents know to ignore these types of judgements from insecure people. Nobody should be basing their parenting decisions based on what other parents think.

Anonymous wrote:I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

Well you would be incorrect in that assumption but I guess you are free to make it. Fortunately I didn't listen to people like you when my kids were learning to swim and make my life unnecessarily hard but you do you I guess.

I mean, obviously you all will do what you want but when I see this in 2024 I view it as a low information parent. The same type who feeds lots of junk food and doesn’t use car seats properly.

Yeah we have an only child and never saw a need for a puddle jumper, but I've observed this is one of those things some people fixate on as an excuse to judge other parents.

DD is 5 now and doesn't yet know how to swim. Not having a puddle jumper didn't mean she automatically learned to be cautious. It's not like I am taking her into the deep end constantly so she is used to getting in the pool and being able to stand up. No way I would trust her to "know her limits" at her current age, much less at age 2.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, I had 3 babies in 2 years (twins) and you can bet I made some use of coastguard approved puddle jumpers. Did not prevent my kids from learning to swim because of course we didn’t do that *instead* of lessons and actual swim learning time. Just to make the logistics safer and possible of taking 3 preschoolers by myself to play in the shallow end. Every freaking trip to the pool I reminded them that only a grownup takes off your life jacket, and made them practice what it feels like to swim without it (one at a time) to reduce any false sense of security.

This is precisely why I find the anti puddle jumper people so annoying. Their argument is that a parent's ability to use her own judgment to ensure her child's safety is never to be trusted, while at the same time insisting that you NOT use a handy tool that can help keep your child safe.

They insist that you must teach your child to swim without any flotation device, which of course means that you must physically support your child in the pool at all times until they can swim independently. If this takes years, too bad. If you have multiple children then oh well I guess you cannot go to the pool at all unless you have one adult per child to ensure they can be in someone's arms at all times. Again, possibly for years. It is an absurd expectation and it's premised on the idea that a person could not possibly find a way to use these devices responsibly by using their own good judgment to ensure that they are not lulled into a false sense of security and that they take steps (including formal swim lessons and informal training on their own) to ensure their kids learn to swim properly.

It's ridiculous but that's the whole point -- create a set of parameters so strict no one can reasonably meet them, thus ensuring that a parent (even one who has successfully taught all their children to swim and whose children have never been improperly supervised at the pool) is never doing anything to your satisfaction.

Really it's just another way for judgmental, superior jerks to yell at moms in the name of child safety.

Thank you. I’m the twin mom you responded to and this is so well stated. There is definitely a “families with more kids than parents are irresponsible” energy to the “well just hold them the whole time” thing and it’s infuriating and unfair.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no dog in this fight as we never bought a puddle jumper (ironically more so out of cheapness/laziness) but it seems the "documented dangers" are anecdotal? I mean those stories are terrifying but don't kids who have never had puddle jumpers also drown? How do we know it's the puddle jumper at fault and not the lack of supervision?

Yes. Reading along here and thinking about it-where I live unfortunately drownings happen due to the large amount of home pools (FL). In news coverage, it's always the child going out the door unnoticed to the pool area, pool gate left open, distracted adults at a party not watching, ect. Small children unfortunately are attracted to water whether they've ever worn a puddle jumper or not. The issue is an unsecured home pool.

Very telling that you think this is true. No, this is the result of puddle jumpers and other flotation devices that kids get used to and think they love and are more secure in water than they should. A kid who never uses a flotation device is welllll aware of their limitations.

-swim instructor

You think a 2 year old who has never used a flotation device is 'well aware of their limitations' around water??? That is literally a drowning waiting to happen! Please tell me you are not serious.

Tell me you’ve never been around a large number of toddlers learning to swim without telling me. If a parent is responsibly teaching their child how to be around water (should start at 6 months) without the use of flotation devices, yes a neurotypical 2 year old 1000% knows their limitations. Drowning prevention isn’t a one and done lesson, it’s taught over years with many building blocks. Flotation devices just knock that down. ISR is proven to be one of the biggest ways to prevent drownings (up there with pool gates) and it’s telling that their *global policy* is no flotation devices for kids ever unless in an open body of water.

Look I've taught gymnastics and tumbling to kids for years and 2 year olds don't know anything. They are 95% instinct and experimentation. Some kids have more natural caution than others but this is driven by instinct and is not a learned skill. Meanwhile plenty of "neurotypical" (please note that at 2 or 3 it's actually pretty hard to distinguish ND from NT unless a kid has a very clear and specific autism presentations -- many behaviors that will become signs of autism in older kids are developmentally normal for all 2 and 3 year olds) 2 year olds exercise surprisingly little caution even when given repeated and clear instructions about safety.

This is why "parent and child" classes are common for kids below preschool age, because having a 1:1 adult to child ratio is safest for very young children who essentially have no judgment.

If ISR was a resource that was universally available to everyone, I might agree that we should all follow their recommendations. But of course it's not and most people have to get their kids to swim using other methods that take much longer. Also, in addition to their no-flotation rule, ISR also requires a 1:1 teacher to student ratio. Because until a kid actually demonstrates the ability to self rescue consistently you need an adult within arms reach. And actually even after a kid has shown the ability to self rescue they will tell you over and over that you still must closely supervise all young children in the water. The deal with ISR is that it's teaching a skill that ideally your child will never have to use.

So here's the deal. If you care about this issue please find a way to get families universal access to ISR swim training for all kids by 12 months of age. If you can't figure that one out you need to accept that parents will rely on flotation devices and other methods for keeping their kids safe in the water (including making sure their kid never has the ability to access a pool or other body of water unattended until they can properly swim).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no dog in this fight as we never bought a puddle jumper (ironically more so out of cheapness/laziness) but it seems the "documented dangers" are anecdotal? I mean those stories are terrifying but don't kids who have never had puddle jumpers also drown? How do we know it's the puddle jumper at fault and not the lack of supervision?

Yes. Reading along here and thinking about it-where I live unfortunately drownings happen due to the large amount of home pools (FL). In news coverage, it's always the child going out the door unnoticed to the pool area, pool gate left open, distracted adults at a party not watching, ect. Small children unfortunately are attracted to water whether they've ever worn a puddle jumper or not. The issue is an unsecured home pool.

Very telling that you think this is true. No, this is the result of puddle jumpers and other flotation devices that kids get used to and think they love and are more secure in water than they should. A kid who never uses a flotation device is welllll aware of their limitations.

-swim instructor

You think a 2 year old who has never used a flotation device is 'well aware of their limitations' around water??? That is literally a drowning waiting to happen! Please tell me you are not serious.

Tell me you’ve never been around a large number of toddlers learning to swim without telling me. If a parent is responsibly teaching their child how to be around water (should start at 6 months) without the use of flotation devices, yes a neurotypical 2 year old 1000% knows their limitations. Drowning prevention isn’t a one and done lesson, it’s taught over years with many building blocks. Flotation devices just knock that down. ISR is proven to be one of the biggest ways to prevent drownings (up there with pool gates) and it’s telling that their *global policy* is no flotation devices for kids ever unless in an open body of water.

No 2 year old can be trusted to know their limitations. Please post where you work so we can avoid it.

My 3 children all did ISR lessons, and were able to swim by age 1, but you’re right - the going to the pool wasn’t fun for me until my younger was 3 or so. It feels like a fair trade off to sacrifice a little bit of time in the summer to give them really solid lifesaving skills, plus confidence in the water.

I don’t judge parents who use puddle jumpers - ISR is definitely a big commitment and not for everyone - but those using them and touting that they are “coast guard approved” should note they are approved for open water only, not pools.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no dog in this fight as we never bought a puddle jumper (ironically more so out of cheapness/laziness) but it seems the "documented dangers" are anecdotal? I mean those stories are terrifying but don't kids who have never had puddle jumpers also drown? How do we know it's the puddle jumper at fault and not the lack of supervision?

Yes. Reading along here and thinking about it-where I live unfortunately drownings happen due to the large amount of home pools (FL). In news coverage, it's always the child going out the door unnoticed to the pool area, pool gate left open, distracted adults at a party not watching, ect. Small children unfortunately are attracted to water whether they've ever worn a puddle jumper or not. The issue is an unsecured home pool.

Very telling that you think this is true. No, this is the result of puddle jumpers and other flotation devices that kids get used to and think they love and are more secure in water than they should. A kid who never uses a flotation device is welllll aware of their limitations.

-swim instructor

You think a 2 year old who has never used a flotation device is 'well aware of their limitations' around water??? That is literally a drowning waiting to happen! Please tell me you are not serious.

Tell me you’ve never been around a large number of toddlers learning to swim without telling me. If a parent is responsibly teaching their child how to be around water (should start at 6 months) without the use of flotation devices, yes a neurotypical 2 year old 1000% knows their limitations. Drowning prevention isn’t a one and done lesson, it’s taught over years with many building blocks. Flotation devices just knock that down. ISR is proven to be one of the biggest ways to prevent drownings (up there with pool gates) and it’s telling that their *global policy* is no flotation devices for kids ever unless in an open body of water.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have no dog in this fight as we never bought a puddle jumper (ironically more so out of cheapness/laziness) but it seems the "documented dangers" are anecdotal? I mean those stories are terrifying but don't kids who have never had puddle jumpers also drown? How do we know it's the puddle jumper at fault and not the lack of supervision?

Yes. Reading along here and thinking about it-where I live unfortunately drownings happen due to the large amount of home pools (FL). In news coverage, it's always the child going out the door unnoticed to the pool area, pool gate left open, distracted adults at a party not watching, ect. Small children unfortunately are attracted to water whether they've ever worn a puddle jumper or not. The issue is an unsecured home pool.

Very telling that you think this is true. No, this is the result of puddle jumpers and other flotation devices that kids get used to and think they love and are more secure in water than they should. A kid who never uses a flotation device is welllll aware of their limitations.

-swim instructor

You think a 2 year old who has never used a flotation device is 'well aware of their limitations' around water??? That is literally a drowning waiting to happen! Please tell me you are not serious.