I was an only child and there wasn't really enough money for just a 1 kid family.

I was sick of doing without and so after college I focused on travel. NO WAY was I going to be trapped with kids in my 20s.

I had 1 kid at 40. In many ways I felt my life ended then.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids and cost of living are too expensive if you have a job in a top 15 metro area. About 100m Americans live in the top 15 metro areas, or about 30% of the country.

At current interest rates, a 31 year-old Millennial couple (peak baby birthing time) need a household income of $250K to buy a decent home an acceptable school district, two cars, daycare, student loan payment, retirement contribution, plus weekly expenses (food, diapers, medical costs, utilities, etc.) AND not feel completely on edge of losing it.

At a $250K HHI, you're already at the 92nd percentile of American households. But 30% of Americans live in a top 15 metro area and are dealing with a huge run up in RE prices and now interest rates.

How is a 31 year-old Millennial couple supposed to buy their first home and have a baby? It's literally not possible unless they are pulling in $250K or have family $$$$.

The math doesn't math. I'd skip kids too. We got lucky in that we are elder Millennials who bought in 2017.

We make $500K today and there's no way we could afford our current house at the current prices and interest rate without a lot of pain and skimpy budgets by the end of the month.

Meh, I think the anxiety of this upcoming generation is really strong and leads to the idea that they need everything in its place. It's just not reasonable. Probably access to too much information has led to this.

You don't need to own a home at 31. Used cars work great. I think people' priorities are a bit focused on things rather than family. And thats ok; it's just different.

But you can raise kids just fine on 100-150k starting out while you work towards making that 250k HHI.

Own homes where? What areas will be basically uninsurable in the future? Florida is already driving people out with the cost of insurance. Parts of the planet will be habitable but the climate refuges of the future are not where the masses of population are currently buying homes and cars.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kids and cost of living are too expensive if you have a job in a top 15 metro area. About 100m Americans live in the top 15 metro areas, or about 30% of the country.

At current interest rates, a 31 year-old Millennial couple (peak baby birthing time) need a household income of $250K to buy a decent home an acceptable school district, two cars, daycare, student loan payment, retirement contribution, plus weekly expenses (food, diapers, medical costs, utilities, etc.) AND not feel completely on edge of losing it.

At a $250K HHI, you're already at the 92nd percentile of American households. But 30% of Americans live in a top 15 metro area and are dealing with a huge run up in RE prices and now interest rates.

How is a 31 year-old Millennial couple supposed to buy their first home and have a baby? It's literally not possible unless they are pulling in $250K or have family $$$$.

The math doesn't math. I'd skip kids too. We got lucky in that we are elder Millennials who bought in 2017.

We make $500K today and there's no way we could afford our current house at the current prices and interest rate without a lot of pain and skimpy budgets by the end of the month.

Meh, I think the anxiety of this upcoming generation is really strong and leads to the idea that they need everything in its place. It's just not reasonable. Probably access to too much information has led to this.

You don't need to own a home at 31. Used cars work great. I think people' priorities are a bit focused on things rather than family. And thats ok; it's just different.

But you can raise kids just fine on 100-150k starting out while you work towards making that 250k HHI.

Sorry, but you SHOULD have settled housing when you start a family. That means housing you will be able to afford for the next 5-7 years while you are in the toughest early years for child rearing. Moving homes or living at the whim of a landlord is incredibly difficult when you have young kids. I know people do it....but it's not how most Americans envision starting a family.

People who actively plan for children want a stable home and job situation. The current economic environment is way too unstable, hence why you see the drop in fertility.

Older Americans have no one to blame but themselves for this predicament. They have been in power and setting economic policies for the last 3-4 decades. This is not a country that values the things that matter to families - affordable safe housing, decent public schools, affordable childcare, and a robust healthcare safety net.

The message projected to young Americans is "why should we pay for your kid?".....then don't expect them to have kids. The social contract in the U.S. is broken.

Anonymous wrote:Kids and cost of living are too expensive if you have a job in a top 15 metro area. About 100m Americans live in the top 15 metro areas, or about 30% of the country.

At current interest rates, a 31 year-old Millennial couple (peak baby birthing time) need a household income of $250K to buy a decent home an acceptable school district, two cars, daycare, student loan payment, retirement contribution, plus weekly expenses (food, diapers, medical costs, utilities, etc.) AND not feel completely on edge of losing it.

At a $250K HHI, you're already at the 92nd percentile of American households. But 30% of Americans live in a top 15 metro area and are dealing with a huge run up in RE prices and now interest rates.

How is a 31 year-old Millennial couple supposed to buy their first home and have a baby? It's literally not possible unless they are pulling in $250K or have family $$$$.

The math doesn't math. I'd skip kids too. We got lucky in that we are elder Millennials who bought in 2017.

We make $500K today and there's no way we could afford our current house at the current prices and interest rate without a lot of pain and skimpy budgets by the end of the month.

Meh, I think the anxiety of this upcoming generation is really strong and leads to the idea that they need everything in its place. It's just not reasonable. Probably access to too much information has led to this.

You don't need to own a home at 31. Used cars work great. I think people' priorities are a bit focused on things rather than family. And thats ok; it's just different.

But you can raise kids just fine on 100-150k starting out while you work towards making that 250k HHI.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

Sometimes a village doesnt exist. I mean, thats a very narrow and self-centered view you have which is interesting since you are calling people who dont want to have kids narrow and self-centered.

You dont just find someone stable and settle down early. Some people dont have siblings. Some dont have parents who are helpful or even of sound mind and body.

If it were just so simple, then everyone would be doing it and there would be no resistance. You seem to be ignoring why people arent having kids and then saying its their bad choices.

People used to have kids they couldnt afford ALL THE TIME. Theyd get abandoned, killed, sold off for menial labor, raised in abject poverty, suffer from malnutrition and disease, etc. I dont think those are good things.

I really have trouble accepting that the reasons for not having children are all self-centered. I do think a majority of the resistance is fear/concern about what type of life and whether you can be a good parent or not. Not everyone will be a good parent and they should not have children in that case. I can assure you that raising the child tax credit (3k is nothing compared to the cost of a child) and dependent care FSA (requires a job) isnt such a windfall that people will just start having kids.

Sure, some people don't have x, some people can't find y, yadda yadda. Some people are unfortunately infertile. There are always exceptions. Doesn't undermine the general rule that people are having less kids because they don't want to sacrifice anything, and so that makes having kids less appealing. My point is to stop complaining and recognize that the change is mostly from within ourselves, not because of external factors.

It is out side factors that smart people pay attention to when deciding about having and raising a family. How many children can I afford to raise? Do I live in a state that is supportive of fertility and pregnancy and birth issues and has medical care in place to help me, or do I live in an abortion ban hellscape? will my children have basic rights like reproductive right or voting rights or will those things be gone? Is the planet still a desirable place for future generations to inhabit? and on and on

Agree. There are many people who would argue that it is selfish to HAVE children, rather than the other way around, given what we are bringing them into.

The most prosperous human civilization in history. It is morally decadent but lifestyles for humans are quite excellent otherwise.

A warmer planet is different but it won't be hostile to human settlement in most cases.

Anonymous wrote:I mean, we can't have population increase indefinitely. Eventually the Earth's going to run out of resources. So I think it's a good thing that the population is decreasing. With as many people we have on the planet today, I don't worry about us not having enough people.

It's not about population increase anymore. It's about population decrease.

Kids and cost of living are too expensive if you have a job in a top 15 metro area. About 100m Americans live in the top 15 metro areas, or about 30% of the country.

At current interest rates, a 31 year-old Millennial couple (peak baby birthing time) need a household income of $250K to buy a decent home an acceptable school district, two cars, daycare, student loan payment, retirement contribution, plus weekly expenses (food, diapers, medical costs, utilities, etc.) AND not feel completely on edge of losing it.

At a $250K HHI, you're already at the 92nd percentile of American households. But 30% of Americans live in a top 15 metro area and are dealing with a huge run up in RE prices and now interest rates.

How is a 31 year-old Millennial couple supposed to buy their first home and have a baby? It's literally not possible unless they are pulling in $250K or have family $$$$.

The math doesn't math. I'd skip kids too. We got lucky in that we are elder Millennials who bought in 2017.

We make $500K today and there's no way we could afford our current house at the current prices and interest rate without a lot of pain and skimpy budgets by the end of the month.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

Sometimes a village doesnt exist. I mean, thats a very narrow and self-centered view you have which is interesting since you are calling people who dont want to have kids narrow and self-centered.

You dont just find someone stable and settle down early. Some people dont have siblings. Some dont have parents who are helpful or even of sound mind and body.

If it were just so simple, then everyone would be doing it and there would be no resistance. You seem to be ignoring why people arent having kids and then saying its their bad choices.

People used to have kids they couldnt afford ALL THE TIME. Theyd get abandoned, killed, sold off for menial labor, raised in abject poverty, suffer from malnutrition and disease, etc. I dont think those are good things.

I really have trouble accepting that the reasons for not having children are all self-centered. I do think a majority of the resistance is fear/concern about what type of life and whether you can be a good parent or not. Not everyone will be a good parent and they should not have children in that case. I can assure you that raising the child tax credit (3k is nothing compared to the cost of a child) and dependent care FSA (requires a job) isnt such a windfall that people will just start having kids.

Sure, some people don't have x, some people can't find y, yadda yadda. Some people are unfortunately infertile. There are always exceptions. Doesn't undermine the general rule that people are having less kids because they don't want to sacrifice anything, and so that makes having kids less appealing. My point is to stop complaining and recognize that the change is mostly from within ourselves, not because of external factors.

It is out side factors that smart people pay attention to when deciding about having and raising a family. How many children can I afford to raise? Do I live in a state that is supportive of fertility and pregnancy and birth issues and has medical care in place to help me, or do I live in an abortion ban hellscape? will my children have basic rights like reproductive right or voting rights or will those things be gone? Is the planet still a desirable place for future generations to inhabit? and on and on

Thank you! I have child, I know how much joy they bring and the sacrifices they require- financial, time, stress, sleep, no vacations, all my leave is burned by maternity leave/sick visits/school closures, worries about their health, no to little free time, weekends spent encouraging their interests, late nights and early mornings when they cant sleep or are sicl, etc. Im aware of those sacrifices and would make it over and over for more kids but what I want do is bring additional children into this world when the bolded is in jeopardy. The world 7 years ago when I had my first felt very different. And COVID did a lot of damage for many working families. Children were ready sacrifices and continue to be.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

If you don't want the government to help people with money when they have kids then don't complain when the birth rate plummets. It's as simple as that. Either subsidize kids like you do corn for the farmers in the midwest or don't expect to have a stable birth rate. We don't owe you babies.

you are absolutely right. I don't care about the plummeting birth rate in and of itself. People should absolutely not have kids if they don't want kids. I care because it is a sign of the increasing selfishness of a generation. And increasing pessimism about the future. Read this board, look around pop culture. There is so much self hatred going around. It's so sad to see.

I am not against reshaping society to be more family oriented. I'm all for that, but it seems to not be working, looking at the European models. It supports my suspicion that the policies don't change people's mind. To do that requires a more fundamental and personal change. To stop being so selfish.

Eh, I think it was pretty selfish to pump out babies continuously to supply more child farm labor. Or to have kids you can’t afford just because the biological clock is ticking. It’s good that we are more thoughtful about how many kids we have.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

If you don't want the government to help people with money when they have kids then don't complain when the birth rate plummets. It's as simple as that. Either subsidize kids like you do corn for the farmers in the midwest or don't expect to have a stable birth rate. We don't owe you babies.

you are absolutely right. I don't care about the plummeting birth rate in and of itself. People should absolutely not have kids if they don't want kids. I care because it is a sign of the increasing selfishness of a generation. And increasing pessimism about the future. Read this board, look around pop culture. There is so much self hatred going around. It's so sad to see.

I am not against reshaping society to be more family oriented. I'm all for that, but it seems to not be working, looking at the European models. It supports my suspicion that the policies don't change people's mind. To do that requires a more fundamental and personal change. To stop being so selfish.

You could look at the European model but we don’t have that here so it’s mostly irrelevant to here, same thing with our new and draconian forced birther policies which mean, at this point, that if you get pregnant with a wanted pregnancy in a non-free state, you can be forced to carry a child with special needs (which is something that needs to be measured against our pro-industry health care in which a child with special needs can bankrupt you) or a pregnancy that will kill you, among other things.

Something that is relevant around the globe is global warming. Anyone with eyes and a memory longer than a few years can see the differences. Is it worth it to bring a child into that, to further damage that?

Further, and I say this as someone with three kids, people who choose not to have children are both more and less selfish than those of us who have children and I find the argument that not having children is inherently selfish is reductive. For many the choice not to have children is self preservation.

(Fun fact for those slamming the women in African nations who have “too many” children: when birth control is made available to women there, they too choose to limit their family sizes. Guess we can credit the forced birthers in the W administration for the growth in birth rates in Africa, too.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

Sometimes a village doesnt exist. I mean, thats a very narrow and self-centered view you have which is interesting since you are calling people who dont want to have kids narrow and self-centered.

You dont just find someone stable and settle down early. Some people dont have siblings. Some dont have parents who are helpful or even of sound mind and body.

If it were just so simple, then everyone would be doing it and there would be no resistance. You seem to be ignoring why people arent having kids and then saying its their bad choices.

People used to have kids they couldnt afford ALL THE TIME. Theyd get abandoned, killed, sold off for menial labor, raised in abject poverty, suffer from malnutrition and disease, etc. I dont think those are good things.

I really have trouble accepting that the reasons for not having children are all self-centered. I do think a majority of the resistance is fear/concern about what type of life and whether you can be a good parent or not. Not everyone will be a good parent and they should not have children in that case. I can assure you that raising the child tax credit (3k is nothing compared to the cost of a child) and dependent care FSA (requires a job) isnt such a windfall that people will just start having kids.

Sure, some people don't have x, some people can't find y, yadda yadda. Some people are unfortunately infertile. There are always exceptions. Doesn't undermine the general rule that people are having less kids because they don't want to sacrifice anything, and so that makes having kids less appealing. My point is to stop complaining and recognize that the change is mostly from within ourselves, not because of external factors.

It is out side factors that smart people pay attention to when deciding about having and raising a family. How many children can I afford to raise? Do I live in a state that is supportive of fertility and pregnancy and birth issues and has medical care in place to help me, or do I live in an abortion ban hellscape? will my children have basic rights like reproductive right or voting rights or will those things be gone? Is the planet still a desirable place for future generations to inhabit? and on and on

Agree. There are many people who would argue that it is selfish to HAVE children, rather than the other way around, given what we are bringing them into.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

Sometimes a village doesnt exist. I mean, thats a very narrow and self-centered view you have which is interesting since you are calling people who dont want to have kids narrow and self-centered.

You dont just find someone stable and settle down early. Some people dont have siblings. Some dont have parents who are helpful or even of sound mind and body.

If it were just so simple, then everyone would be doing it and there would be no resistance. You seem to be ignoring why people arent having kids and then saying its their bad choices.

People used to have kids they couldnt afford ALL THE TIME. Theyd get abandoned, killed, sold off for menial labor, raised in abject poverty, suffer from malnutrition and disease, etc. I dont think those are good things.

I really have trouble accepting that the reasons for not having children are all self-centered. I do think a majority of the resistance is fear/concern about what type of life and whether you can be a good parent or not. Not everyone will be a good parent and they should not have children in that case. I can assure you that raising the child tax credit (3k is nothing compared to the cost of a child) and dependent care FSA (requires a job) isnt such a windfall that people will just start having kids.

Sure, some people don't have x, some people can't find y, yadda yadda. Some people are unfortunately infertile. There are always exceptions. Doesn't undermine the general rule that people are having less kids because they don't want to sacrifice anything, and so that makes having kids less appealing. My point is to stop complaining and recognize that the change is mostly from within ourselves, not because of external factors.

It is out side factors that smart people pay attention to when deciding about having and raising a family. How many children can I afford to raise? Do I live in a state that is supportive of fertility and pregnancy and birth issues and has medical care in place to help me, or do I live in an abortion ban hellscape? will my children have basic rights like reproductive right or voting rights or will those things be gone? Is the planet still a desirable place for future generations to inhabit? and on and on

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

Sometimes a village doesnt exist. I mean, thats a very narrow and self-centered view you have which is interesting since you are calling people who dont want to have kids narrow and self-centered.

You dont just find someone stable and settle down early. Some people dont have siblings. Some dont have parents who are helpful or even of sound mind and body.

If it were just so simple, then everyone would be doing it and there would be no resistance. You seem to be ignoring why people arent having kids and then saying its their bad choices.

People used to have kids they couldnt afford ALL THE TIME. Theyd get abandoned, killed, sold off for menial labor, raised in abject poverty, suffer from malnutrition and disease, etc. I dont think those are good things.

I really have trouble accepting that the reasons for not having children are all self-centered. I do think a majority of the resistance is fear/concern about what type of life and whether you can be a good parent or not. Not everyone will be a good parent and they should not have children in that case. I can assure you that raising the child tax credit (3k is nothing compared to the cost of a child) and dependent care FSA (requires a job) isnt such a windfall that people will just start having kids.

Sure, some people don't have x, some people can't find y, yadda yadda. Some people are unfortunately infertile. There are always exceptions. Doesn't undermine the general rule that people are having less kids because they don't want to sacrifice anything, and so that makes having kids less appealing. My point is to stop complaining and recognize that the change is mostly from within ourselves, not because of external factors.

I mean, we can't have population increase indefinitely. Eventually the Earth's going to run out of resources. So I think it's a good thing that the population is decreasing. With as many people we have on the planet today, I don't worry about us not having enough people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's not the world that is changing and becoming harder to have kids, it's people's mentality. No one ever thought raising kids is easy, or doesn't requires sacrifices. It's not hard to have kids if you prioritize family. It's hard to have kids while not sacrificing anything, and that's where the younger generation is having trouble. They have been raised to never compromise on their dreams or wants and to do only what feels good for them. Well then, of course having kids is not that feasible.

If you want kids, make it happen. Move to a cheaper location. Settle down earlier with a stable partner and build equity. Move closer to family. Families used to help each other. Nowadays, family is toxic and everyone wants to avoid their parents and siblings. Well, then you lost your village and you are on your own and everything, including raising kids, is easier. Don't put this on the government. It is not the government's job to help you raise your kids. Nor are they any good at it.

If you don't want the government to help people with money when they have kids then don't complain when the birth rate plummets. It's as simple as that. Either subsidize kids like you do corn for the farmers in the midwest or don't expect to have a stable birth rate. We don't owe you babies.

you are absolutely right. I don't care about the plummeting birth rate in and of itself. People should absolutely not have kids if they don't want kids. I care because it is a sign of the increasing selfishness of a generation. And increasing pessimism about the future. Read this board, look around pop culture. There is so much self hatred going around. It's so sad to see.

I am not against reshaping society to be more family oriented. I'm all for that, but it seems to not be working, looking at the European models. It supports my suspicion that the policies don't change people's mind. To do that requires a more fundamental and personal change. To stop being so selfish.