Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't understand the anti-language folks. I can't remember a lick of algebra or chemistry and thought they both were a waste of time. What's the difference?

+1
My kids are good at the humanities and languages. Both took their FL all four years of high school, through AP and one is now minoring in that language in college. On the flip side, neither took calculus in high school or college because they had no need to. Zero problems with great college acceptances. I would just go with the student’s strengths and stop worrying about what people tell you you *have* to do.

Scratching my head here.. The so called 'anti-language' folks are making the same point. Study what you want. Don't stuff language down our throats if we don't want it. Colleges shouldn't care about this. If language is your 'jam', by all means, learn two languages all 4 years of HS, but don't force someone who couldn't care less about language to sit through it for 4 years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

You may call this bias, but I call it reality of living in 2024 and entering the workforce in 2028 or later (after 4 years of college). Foreign language is a great elective and its wonderful to be able to order off a menu in French, but I do not think it should be considered a core high school class for purposes of college admissions (especially for STEM majors). The reality is that even after 6-7 years of middle and high school foreign language instruction in the United States, most students can barely order off a menu- but even if the instruction were better, it is not an essential skill in this modern era. One-two years of computer science (also an elective, by the way) is at least an equally important foundational skill for the majority of jobs these students are going to be facing when they leave college. Its just reality.

How quaint! We spent a month in Japan last year and most of our ordering was using google translate to read the menu and pointing a finger at the item accompanied by a smile and thank you of course. One of our companions knew japanese but it was a PIA asking them to step in for everything. Worked well for us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

You may call this bias, but I call it reality of living in 2024 and entering the workforce in 2028 or later (after 4 years of college). Foreign language is a great elective and its wonderful to be able to order off a menu in French, but I do not think it should be considered a core high school class for purposes of college admissions (especially for STEM majors). The reality is that even after 6-7 years of middle and high school foreign language instruction in the United States, most students can barely order off a menu- but even if the instruction were better, it is not an essential skill in this modern era. One-two years of computer science (also an elective, by the way) is at least an equally important foundational skill for the majority of jobs these students are going to be facing when they leave college. Its just reality.

And should math not be considered a core class for all the future humanities majors? They can use calculators, computer programs (for which they don’t need to know the underlying math) and so on for their math needs.

(Hopefully) obviously I don’t believe that - as a former humanities major as I see benefits in how I think and approach problems that I probably received seeds of in my math classes. Likewise I don’t understand how one doesn’t see benefits of learning other languages, especially in our highly globalized world (students aren’t just learning vocab and grammar in language classes, but also culture and history etc from those countries).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I appreciate and understand that. Which is why I think it is terrific to study languages if that is your thing. My point was more that there is a workaround if necessary.

I just think the US is so darned prescriptive. It has become boring to me to see all these high schoolers on the same path. We were just willing to let our son take a risk.

I have no idea how this will end. And that’s okay.

What a joke. Which major country on this planet isn’t “prescriptive” when it comes to elite college admissions? China? Japan? The UK? Germany? Australia? For most of these countries a kid’s university selection, major and often career are dictated by what decisions were made since they were, what, 10 or 12 years old? Do you really think the US is unique in having particular and sometimes perplexing university admissions requirements. If you do, then you don’t get out much.

The real difference is that American parents all think their own kid deserves special treatment and shouldn’t have to play by the rules,

You are incorrect. High standards for elite schools are fine. But subject selection is indeed overly prescriptive in the US system.

Use Australia as an example. To earn your HSC, you test in English and four other subjects of your choosing. A polyglot can test in four additional languages. A future doctor can take four sciences. There is a math/econ/commerce track. Or a mix if the student prefers. But any of these paths will get you to a great university if you do well. Rigorous, broad General Ed requirements end at the end of Year 10.

Those kids are not tying themselves in knots trying to figure out how to be a well rounded yet extraordinarily pointy varsity athlete who founded a faux charity while paying a consultant $10k to polish the essay their mother wrote for them while they were busy paying to play at building mud huts in a random Central American country to which they have no connection. While speaking French.

I don’t think any kid should play by those rules. They need to be rewritten.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This AGAIN?

The bottom line is that you can get into a decent to good college without taking four years of a language in high school, but the very good and best colleges want to see four years, and why not? Foreign language is important. It’s a complicated world. Speaking a second language is an important thing. It’s a lot more important than a lot of the other bullshit classes that you have to take in high school. Why is everybody so afraid of foreign language?

I'm not afraid of foreign language. I speak three languages, including speaking a language other than English with my immigrant parents. But my child will be stopping his foreign language after this year (10th grade, Spanish 4) because he wants to take other things and he's in orchestra and doesn't want to drop it and there are only so many periods in a day. The truth is that that after four years of middle/high school Spanish, he still can't speak it. Not even close. It's been a huge waste of time (sadly).

We’re not talking about your language ability or experience. We’re talking about your kid’s. Apparently his language abilities aren’t as good as yours.

His language abilities are definitely not as good as mine, and that’s okay. But apparently your language abilities aren’t that good either because you seem to struggle with reading comprehension in English. I mentioned my language abilities in response to the notion that people who don’t encourage their kids to take a language all four years of high school are afraid of foreign language or against their children learning one.

You’re contradicting yourself. The very reason you are arguing against your kid having to continue to take a foreign language is because by your own admission he’s not good at it. So, yeah, there’s fear there.

I was just responding to the PP’s little dig that his abilities aren’t as good as mine. There’s no fear. He gets As in Spanish even though he can’t speak it. He’s stopping after 2 years of taking it in HS because he has other things he’s more interested in. If your kid wants to take a FL all four years, great! Go for it!

Well, there’s no way to know for sure if it’s going to hurt him when it comes to college admissions, but I hope it does.

Are you as awful in real life as you are online?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

You may call this bias, but I call it reality of living in 2024 and entering the workforce in 2028 or later (after 4 years of college). Foreign language is a great elective and its wonderful to be able to order off a menu in French, but I do not think it should be considered a core high school class for purposes of college admissions (especially for STEM majors). The reality is that even after 6-7 years of middle and high school foreign language instruction in the United States, most students can barely order off a menu- but even if the instruction were better, it is not an essential skill in this modern era. One-two years of computer science (also an elective, by the way) is at least an equally important foundational skill for the majority of jobs these students are going to be facing when they leave college. Its just reality.

They will need foreign language in college. That's why the colleges want to see FL in Senior Year of high school. If they aren't going to need FL, for whatever major they are in, you better know that. Colleges know students often change their major or don't get in to their first choice of majors. If you think your student will be well prepared to place-out of having to take college FL, that's a very individual circumstance.

Re: college and FL, it's not just about getting-in, it's about getting-out/graduating.

Anonymous wrote:Take a language all 4 years. It is considered to be a "core subject" by colleges. Trust me. Do it.

Np my ds will be done with AP Spanish junior year. I doubt it’s uncommon. Why would kids be penalized for being done earlier if they reach highest level?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

Yea it’s almost laughable except it’s actually not funny to think that way.

Anonymous wrote:I would really like to believe that in this day an age a foreign language class is no longer considered a “core class”. Especially for kids applying to STEM or business majors. Its really is an outdated concept with the easy availability of translation apps [especialy at our HS where the quality of teaching is abysmal its as much of a waset of time as PE class]. But Im not sure how many AOs are on board with that yet.

Wow, this is an answer heavy with bias. World language is outdated, why not also English classes, too, since we can all just watch videos and use ChatGpt to write our papers. Might as well also scrap social studies, because one can use google to find out history and georgraphy facts.

All hail the mighty STEM!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges say what they want to see. Some say four years of FL, some three, and some two. Same as they do with math, science, history. I would not waste an application on a school that requires four years of you have only two.

Has anyone ever seen a college that formally requires four years of language study in high school for admissions? Please link the requirements page. Because I never have.

I know Princeton requires for years of one language.

It’s not a requirement. The page literally says “this is not a list of admissions requirements.”

Anonymous wrote:If a college requires three years of foreign language, does that mean in high school? What if you took two years in middle school and placed into Spanish 2 or 3?

OP, to answer this question, we need to know what kind of college and what kind of major interests your kid? There is no way to know in you are talking about Harvard or Mason, etc. Also, bear in mind that kids change their views on college (which college and which applications to consider) throughout high school. There are several contributing academic factors to consider: level of courses, grades, potential... and also non academic: setting, size of college, type of peer....

Without knowing your end game, no one can really answer your question. The "higher" the college, the more demanding they are of the transcript. Generally, your HS counselor knows best.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges say what they want to see. Some say four years of FL, some three, and some two. Same as they do with math, science, history. I would not waste an application on a school that requires four years of you have only two.

Has anyone ever seen a college that formally requires four years of language study in high school for admissions? Please link the requirements page. Because I never have.

I know Princeton requires for years of one language.

Harvard strongly recommends it:

https://college.harvard.edu/guides/preparing-college#:~:text=Choosing%20high%20school%20courses&text=Four%20years%20of%20a%20single,one%20additional%20advanced%20history%20course

Four years

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Colleges say what they want to see. Some say four years of FL, some three, and some two. Same as they do with math, science, history. I would not waste an application on a school that requires four years of you have only two.

Has anyone ever seen a college that formally requires four years of language study in high school for admissions? Please link the requirements page. Because I never have.

I know Princeton requires for years of one language.