It really tough. I have two DDs (15 and 13) who both have mainstream interests (dress like a typical teen, like Taylor Swift, starbucks, etc.) but who are not part of the "popular" clique at their schools. I think a part of them would like to be and they feel left out, but also those girls are really mean to them (and also to each other, according to friends who ARE in the group.) My girls feel like they have limited other options for friends as it seems most of the rest have some sort of fringe interest interest like they are LGBTQ and only want friends that are the same, or are "theater" kids and only hang with other theater kids, same for band kids, etc. And yes my girls HAVE tried to break into these groups, but the groups are not interested in having outsiders.

My girls have 1-2 close friends each (which is a godsend) and then have reasonably good friendships through their sport/dance but those friends often don't go to school with them.

Its just...tough and I don't know how to advise.

Anonymous wrote:My teen sons have a really great group of friends that have been together since Kindergarten. They are split up among different HS now--some public, some private. But, they are so nice and supportive to one another. I overhear their conversations and yeah there is some silliness, light-hearted teasing at times--but I also have heard them say some really comforting stuff. They all have empathy. But, my kids aren't running with the 'fastest' crowd. They play their sport and get good grades and chill on the weekends at one another's homes.

I'm glad that your sons "found their people" early on.

Anonymous wrote:They are, and I think they are learning it from us.

The DC area is full of strivers, Alphas, and Type-A people.

Alphas, Type As , and strivers do not get to where they are by being nice.

They get to the top by stepping on others.

and that is what kids in the DC area see & learn from their DC parents:

Step on other people.

They are, and I think they are learning it from us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think relational aggression among popular kids is as high as it ever was if not worse.

I think kids who are not in this group or even more so have any kind of noted difference that makes them not a fair target...not neurotypical, LGBTQ, or really just even a "loner", "weird", whatever the word is, those kids get left alone far more than they did in our day.

My take is some kids are still the same amount of mean and they have fewer "allowed" channels to be mean so they turn on more of a smaller group to unleash the mean.

In other words, the popular kids have turned on themselves because they've gotten the message to leave vulnerable kids alone? If you're right, I don't have much sympathy for them, or the OP's daughter.

This was described to me by my teenager and it kind of made sense to me. He was in the popular crowd (and I observed what he was experiencing) and was pretty miserable and slowly moved away and found a "nerdier" crowd and is much happier. They are nice to each other. I think there is an element in the popular crowd of always being aware of your place and feeling panicked to protect it too. So it only takes a couple mean kids to really get all the rest of them to participate in the dynamic even if they know better or it's not their genuine nature. Eat or be eaten. They want to be in the group so go along even if they're not having a very good time.

This. Eat or be eaten.

Friend at work has a beautiful popular daughter. Befriends many people. Other girls quickly turned on her in MS. Lunchroom was something out of a movie. Some "friends" jealous as boys noticed her, other pissed she might be expanding the circle and/or upsetting the girls' hierarchy. My more nerdy kid and his friends completely not on anyone's radar at big HS.

Sounds like middle aged moms in certain suburbs. Wonder where these kids learn such behavior?

Yes! My daughter even commented when she got to 6th as the popular groups converged into one larger group that all the kids "knew each other from their parents being friends and having parties"

This does not happen in public school. At all. Which gets to the previous point of if you go to a private school don't complain about people being jerks and aware of status and hierarchy. Hello. Life choices.

NP. It absolutely happens in the public middle school where my kid went. Social pecking order very much determined by whose mom is friends with whom. It dissipates a little in high school, but I swear, some of these parents picked out who they want their kids to be friends with in preschool and are working every angle to make sure it stays that way.

+1

Same at our school (UMC suburban public). I thought all of that would go away as the kids got older, but it still very much applies.

Also agree with a Pp who said the main targets are “kids who are on the periphery” of the popular group in some way (due to being a friend of a friend, on the same sports team or similar etc). The kids who are very unusual or unpopular (not sure how better to describe) seem to be just ignored entirely. Not included but not picked on either.

This is my teen daughter. She’s really smart, beautiful, kind, and athletic but attends a horrific private school and has no real friendships. Not bullied but out and out ignored. Super lonely. My heart breaks for her and not a damn thing I can do except try and keep her spirits up to look forward to college and what comes next. It sucks!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think relational aggression among popular kids is as high as it ever was if not worse.

I think kids who are not in this group or even more so have any kind of noted difference that makes them not a fair target...not neurotypical, LGBTQ, or really just even a "loner", "weird", whatever the word is, those kids get left alone far more than they did in our day.

My take is some kids are still the same amount of mean and they have fewer "allowed" channels to be mean so they turn on more of a smaller group to unleash the mean.

In other words, the popular kids have turned on themselves because they've gotten the message to leave vulnerable kids alone? If you're right, I don't have much sympathy for them, or the OP's daughter.

This was described to me by my teenager and it kind of made sense to me. He was in the popular crowd (and I observed what he was experiencing) and was pretty miserable and slowly moved away and found a "nerdier" crowd and is much happier. They are nice to each other. I think there is an element in the popular crowd of always being aware of your place and feeling panicked to protect it too. So it only takes a couple mean kids to really get all the rest of them to participate in the dynamic even if they know better or it's not their genuine nature. Eat or be eaten. They want to be in the group so go along even if they're not having a very good time.

This. Eat or be eaten.

Friend at work has a beautiful popular daughter. Befriends many people. Other girls quickly turned on her in MS. Lunchroom was something out of a movie. Some "friends" jealous as boys noticed her, other pissed she might be expanding the circle and/or upsetting the girls' hierarchy. My more nerdy kid and his friends completely not on anyone's radar at big HS.

Sounds like middle aged moms in certain suburbs. Wonder where these kids learn such behavior?

Yes! My daughter even commented when she got to 6th as the popular groups converged into one larger group that all the kids "knew each other from their parents being friends and having parties"

This does not happen in public school. At all. Which gets to the previous point of if you go to a private school don't complain about people being jerks and aware of status and hierarchy. Hello. Life choices.

NP. It absolutely happens in the public middle school where my kid went. Social pecking order very much determined by whose mom is friends with whom. It dissipates a little in high school, but I swear, some of these parents picked out who they want their kids to be friends with in preschool and are working every angle to make sure it stays that way.

+1

Same at our school (UMC suburban public). I thought all of that would go away as the kids got older, but it still very much applies.

Also agree with a Pp who said the main targets are “kids who are on the periphery” of the popular group in some way (due to being a friend of a friend, on the same sports team or similar etc). The kids who are very unusual or unpopular (not sure how better to describe) seem to be just ignored entirely. Not included but not picked on either.

OMG yes. It’s unreal how vicious they are to the kids who are just outside the popular bubble. My DS quit Little League and club sports because he got so tired of dealing with them. They would physically attack him during practice, call him names, never pass to him, deliberately hit him with baseballs, then mock him the next day in school for crying. The coaches and parents didn’t care.

Our local paper ran a handwringing editorial piece “why do so few kids play Little League anymore” and I just rolled my eyes.