Anonymous wrote:So many posts here attack organized religion and call it evil and the source of evil in the world. People as recently as yesterday have posted they wish they could ban organized religion.

Why do these posters (atheists, anti-theists) not realize our entire country is based upon religious freedom? They are admitting openly they are in direct opposition of the express wishes of our country’s founders and our constitution and laws? Or do they realize and just don’t care?

Also, if you look at countries that limit religious freedom, you see a pattern of government control that makes said country extremely dangerous and authoritarian to live in, it’s not good. If you think organized religion is evil, why are the countries that limit or basically outlaw religion such terrible places to live?

If you are an atheist or anti- theist who thinks organized religion is evil, and you would like to ban organized religion, how do you feel about our forefathers (who thought religious freedom was extremely important) and the emphasis our laws place on religious freedom and liberty?

You are an idiot religious creep

Atheists are not the problem it’s the religious right. Which you know because that is you.

I had to endore religious garbage in public school my whole life where was my religious freedom? I wasn’t Catholic and my whole town but three families were. Do you know how awful that was!

Then as an adult living in NC my kids had to deal with it too. We moved to MD to get away from that shit being shoved down our throats. Yes this happened.

And your boys are now trying to kill women and keep them barefoot and pregnant so take your religious crap and shove it.

As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion

John Adams - 1797

How Christian Slaveholders Used the Bible to Justify Slavery

https://time.com/5171819/christianity-slavery-book-excerpt/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Christian abolitionists were behind the movement to stop and then abolish slavery in the US.

Slavery exists now throughout the world in greater numbers than any time in recorded history, mostly women and children.

Christian countries don’t have slaves anymore, but countries that limit religious freedom/aren’t Christian do have slaves in present day.

Wow. You are grossly ignorant.

It would be interesting to see exactly which countries the OP deems “Christian countries”. Since they incorrectly believe that the US is a “Christian country”, there’s likely to be some disagreement. Similarly, “slaves in the present day” can’t be discussed without some agreement as to what that means.

Why does OP keep saying the US is a "christian country" in a thread about religious freedom? These are literally at odds. You can't have religious freedom if you are calling the entire country christian.

I think thats kind of the point other people were making in the other thread. You are literally pushing your religion on an entire country, how free is that?

The Establishment Clause is a part of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that prohibits the government from making any law “respecting an establishment of religion”. This clause not only forbids the government from establishing an official religion, but also prohibits government actions that unduly favor one religion over another1. The basic purpose of the Establishment Clause is to protect religious freedom and to separate state and church.

Any respectable academic would agree, you cannot simply look at one piece of evidence to try and establish a historical (or any other) fact. In history, you must look at evidence that is contradictory in order to gain a more precise understanding of context. Take, for example, this 1798 proclamation from President John Adams, who was president when the Treaty of Tripoli was ratified, which states, “[T]he safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him, but a duty whose natural influence is favorable to the promotion of that morality and piety without which social happiness can not [sic] exist nor the blessings of a free government be enjoyed.”
Further on in the proclamation – which promoted a national day of humiliation, fasting and prayer – it recommends “that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are justly chargeable as individuals and as a nation, beseeching Him at the same time, of His infinite grace, through the Redeemer of the World, freely to remit all our offenses, and to incline us by His Holy Spirit to that sincere repentance and reformation which may afford us reason to hope for his inestimable favor and heavenly benediction.”

So though it may be true that the United States government did not enforce a specific sect of Christianity, it certainly wasn’t neutral when it came to religious matters. In fact, religion was viewed as necessary to a civil society and the government of the United States, through its executive, was willing to incorporate Christian beliefs and Christian symbolism into its affairs. Taken on its own, this type of proclamation suggests that the United States government is in fact founded on the Christian religion. The government saw pleas to the Almighty through Jesus Christ (aka “Redeemer of the World”) as necessary for the survival and well-being of the nation it governed. But again, that would be taking one piece of historical evidence to make a political point.


A further fact needs to be considered as well: there are multiple Treaties of Tripoli.

In 1801, the 1797 treaty was broken when Tripoli attacked American shipping after the United States refused to pay more tribute. This led to the First Barbary War – immortalized in the Marine Corps hymn lyric “to the shores of Tripoli – which ended with the signing of a second Treaty of Tripoli. This treaty was very similar to the original with a few notable exceptions, the most notable of which is the clause declaring that the United States is “not in any way founded on the Christian Religion” is completely missing. Here is part of Article 14 of the 1805 treaty:

“As the Government of the United States of America, has in itself no character of enmity against the Laws, Religion or Tranquility of Musselmen, and as the said States never have entered into any voluntary war or act of hostility against any Mahometan Nation, except in the defence [sic] of their just rights to freely navigate the High Seas: It is declared by the contracting parties that no pretext arising from Religious Opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the Harmony existing between the two Nations…”


https://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthropology/2016/05/secularists-please-stop-quoting-the-treaty-of-tripoli/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not an atheist. I am extremely concerned that many people now believe that their own freedom of religion can be used politically and legally to limit the freedoms of those of us who do not share their particular brand of religious beliefs. This is both dangerous and contrary to the freedoms that the founders of this country intended. Many religious beliefs and behaviors are indeed evil — and parts of this country are rapidly becoming, as you put it, terrible places to live for many of us.

Your appeals to “our” forefathers don’t move me very much. The ideals that this country was founded upon are extremely important. As a Black female, though, I get that my freedom and Liberty and that of most of MY forefathers — on any level, from physical to religious— wasn’t on their list of priorities. Evil is still evil — no matter how many flags you wave or Bibles you clutch.

What parts of the country are becoming terrible places to live because of religion?

What do you think of the pervasiveness of predominantly female and child slavery in non- christian countries?

Are you concerned for the women and children worldwide who will live short miserable lives as slaves while you have complete freedom in America and complain about Christianity?

Would you trade places with them to live a life free from Christianity?

https://states.guttmacher.org/policies/?gad_source=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxcD2uNf_ggMVh4JaBR1Y3gDUEAAYASAAEgKcQPD_BwE

States decide their own stances on abortion, and have done so legislatively and through elections.

You don’t agree that each state should be allowed to do that? Why do you think your opinion about abortion is more important than the right of states to have free elections and states to make their own decisions and laws about any issue?

Abortion isn't an "issue" it is healthcare and no, I do not think anyone's right to access healthcare should change based on the state in which I live.

Imagine if a pro-birth state made it illegal for men to get vasectomies or women to get tubal ligations?

The founders emphasized freedom of religion because they’d been subject to oppression owing to a state sponsored/endorsed religion. To understand that and then argue that we are a Christian nation is to advocate for yet another brand of state endorsed religion. That’s what you might be missing. In this regard the atheists are much more logically consistent with the founders than you are. How that answers the question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not an atheist. I am extremely concerned that many people now believe that their own freedom of religion can be used politically and legally to limit the freedoms of those of us who do not share their particular brand of religious beliefs. This is both dangerous and contrary to the freedoms that the founders of this country intended. Many religious beliefs and behaviors are indeed evil — and parts of this country are rapidly becoming, as you put it, terrible places to live for many of us.

Your appeals to “our” forefathers don’t move me very much. The ideals that this country was founded upon are extremely important. As a Black female, though, I get that my freedom and Liberty and that of most of MY forefathers — on any level, from physical to religious— wasn’t on their list of priorities. Evil is still evil — no matter how many flags you wave or Bibles you clutch.

Exactly. Freedom of religion means that the government shouldn’t force religion on others. Religious people have unethically - and unconstitutionally - been using the government to force their beliefs on others.

If anyone should be complaining about religious freedom right now, it’s the millions of oppressed people who’ve had their rights taken away from them by religious extremists.

You are wrong and live in a country where you are allowed complete freedom because we are a Christian nation. You ignore millions of slaves worldwide in non-Christian countries and the authoritarian anti- religious countries you would never want to live in for 10 minutes.

Great! So we both disagree with the Christian bible, which endorses slavery and provides instructions on how to manage slaves.

We both agree that is 100% immoral. Even though it is in the bible.

Thanks, Friend!

Oh look, it’s the intellectually dishonest poster who who declares that everyone agrees with their opinion, despite the inaccuracy of said declaration.

If someone suddenly declares you agree with them, even though you don’t, and calls you “friend,” they are supremely intellectually dishonest untrustworthy.

It’s the same poster that declares their opinion as facts that everyone suddenly is in complete agreement with, out of nowhere.

For the record, I do not agree with you. And you should refrain from pretending anyone agrees with you.

The Christian Bible details how the Jewish people were to treat their slaves.

Are Jewish people currently slaveholders? Are you implying that?

Do you think slaves should follow these instructions?
“Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord.“

Still waiting to hear back from the PP on this question.

Anonymous wrote:Christian abolitionists were behind the movement to stop and then abolish slavery in the US.

Slavery exists now throughout the world in greater numbers than any time in recorded history, mostly women and children.

Christian countries don’t have slaves anymore, but countries that limit religious freedom/aren’t Christian do have slaves in present day.

Wow. You are grossly ignorant.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No atheist I know wants to ban organized religion. I also don't recall any content I have seen calling for that.

So you are lying and should be ignored.

I see. So this one poster said “I wish” but isn’t actively calling to ban because they recognize it’s not something possible.

Ho hum.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not an atheist. I am extremely concerned that many people now believe that their own freedom of religion can be used politically and legally to limit the freedoms of those of us who do not share their particular brand of religious beliefs. This is both dangerous and contrary to the freedoms that the founders of this country intended. Many religious beliefs and behaviors are indeed evil — and parts of this country are rapidly becoming, as you put it, terrible places to live for many of us.

Your appeals to “our” forefathers don’t move me very much. The ideals that this country was founded upon are extremely important. As a Black female, though, I get that my freedom and Liberty and that of most of MY forefathers — on any level, from physical to religious— wasn’t on their list of priorities. Evil is still evil — no matter how many flags you wave or Bibles you clutch.

Exactly. Freedom of religion means that the government shouldn’t force religion on others. Religious people have unethically - and unconstitutionally - been using the government to force their beliefs on others.

If anyone should be complaining about religious freedom right now, it’s the millions of oppressed people who’ve had their rights taken away from them by religious extremists.

You are wrong and live in a country where you are allowed complete freedom because we are a Christian nation. You ignore millions of slaves worldwide in non-Christian countries and the authoritarian anti- religious countries you would never want to live in for 10 minutes.

Hmm why do you insist that the United States is a Christian nation- as a percentage of the population, there were more self identified Christians alive during the first Presidency and George Washington expressly stated " As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
Christianity is the religion of most of the populace but Americans are bound by a set of secular ideas and beliefs that are not rooted within a belief in Jesus Christ as the resurrected Lord and Savior, Thomas Jefferson, openly rejected the divinity or reality of a resurrected Christ, it was used against him in the campaign for president and he still managed to win the votes of all those men who self identified as Christian. In fact back then, you could be Christian and not believe in Jesus as lord b/c it meant someone who had integrity or good morals (still used in southern dialogue as such).
the founding fathers agreed with the Virginia statute for religious freedom. You are on DCUM, so I think it would be easy for you to take a trip down to the Jefferson memorial and read the prescience with which the founding fathers wrote of the rights of "Hindoos and Muhammadens" who would in future live free and un-abrogated lives in the United States. It's right there, carved in stone by the masons who created the memorial years after the founders were dead and buried. You could argue that they believed in a God, a divine being who created everything and thus imbued creation with rights, and thus argue against atheist saying that this is an ungodly nation and you could win the argument stripping God from the pledge, the dollar and everywhere else , its always best to just say the truth and not exaggerate and lie to try and win. The truth will set you free, lying will cause you to lose everything.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not an atheist. I am extremely concerned that many people now believe that their own freedom of religion can be used politically and legally to limit the freedoms of those of us who do not share their particular brand of religious beliefs. This is both dangerous and contrary to the freedoms that the founders of this country intended. Many religious beliefs and behaviors are indeed evil — and parts of this country are rapidly becoming, as you put it, terrible places to live for many of us.

Your appeals to “our” forefathers don’t move me very much. The ideals that this country was founded upon are extremely important. As a Black female, though, I get that my freedom and Liberty and that of most of MY forefathers — on any level, from physical to religious— wasn’t on their list of priorities. Evil is still evil — no matter how many flags you wave or Bibles you clutch.

Exactly. Freedom of religion means that the government shouldn’t force religion on others. Religious people have unethically - and unconstitutionally - been using the government to force their beliefs on others.

If anyone should be complaining about religious freedom right now, it’s the millions of oppressed people who’ve had their rights taken away from them by religious extremists.

You are wrong and live in a country where you are allowed complete freedom because we are a Christian nation. You ignore millions of slaves worldwide in non-Christian countries and the authoritarian anti- religious countries you would never want to live in for 10 minutes.

Great! So we both disagree with the Christian bible, which endorses slavery and provides instructions on how to manage slaves.

We both agree that is 100% immoral. Even though it is in the bible.

Thanks, Friend!

Oh look, it’s the intellectually dishonest poster who who declares that everyone agrees with their opinion, despite the inaccuracy of said declaration.

If someone suddenly declares you agree with them, even though you don’t, and calls you “friend,” they are supremely intellectually dishonest untrustworthy.

It’s the same poster that declares their opinion as facts that everyone suddenly is in complete agreement with, out of nowhere.

For the record, I do not agree with you. And you should refrain from pretending anyone agrees with you.

The Christian Bible details how the Jewish people were to treat their slaves.

Are Jewish people currently slaveholders? Are you implying that?

No, I am not implying anything.

I am stating facts. Easily verifiable facts. https://michaelpahl.com/2017/01/27/the-bible-is-clear-god-endorses-slavery/

The Bible is clear: God endorses slavery.
Posted on January 27, 2017
There are at least seven passages in the Bible where God is depicted as directly permitting or endorsing slavery. Two of these are in the Law of Moses: God permitted the Israelites to take slaves from conquered peoples permanently, and the Israelites could sell themselves into slavery temporarily to pay off debts (Exod 21:2-11; Lev 25:44-46). The other five passages are in the New Testament, where slavery as a social institution is endorsed and slaves are called to obey their masters “in everything” (Eph 6:5-9; Col 3:22-4:1; 1 Tim 6:1-2; Tit 2:9-10; 1 Pet 2:18-20).

But slavery is viewed positively in Scripture well beyond these commands. Owning slaves was seen as a sign of God’s blessing (Gen 12:16; 24:35; Isa 14:1-2), and there are literally dozens of passages in the Bible that speak of slavery in passing, without comment. Slavery was simply part of life, and most people saw it as just the way things always were, even the divinely ordained order of things.

And yes, in case there is any doubt, this was real slavery: “the slave is the owner’s property” (Exod 21:21). Both Old and New Testaments called for better treatment of slaves than many of the peoples around them, and the Law of Moses in particular called for better treatment of fellow Israelites as slaves. But slaves could be beaten (Exod 21:20-21; 1 Pet 2:18-20), and slaves could be taken as concubines (Gen 16:3-4; Exod 21:8-11) or even raped without serious consequence (Lev 19:20-22).

Way more evidence in the article linked if anyone chooses to read it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No atheist I know wants to ban organized religion. I also don't recall any content I have seen calling for that.

So you are lying and should be ignored.

Oh so some anonymous douche who could have been anybody (including you). Well that settles it!

That is NOT the position of the vast majority of atheists.

You are just wrong and you know it. Which makes it lying.