Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:45
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
This 100%. People forget that there was virtually nothing known about this virus, and that we had no tests and no treatments. Oh, also it could spread asymptomatically. Would *you* want to be the one that made the call to send kids back to school only to have a breakout of the virus with a 10% fatality rate?
Calling the lockdowns an "experiment" is misinformed and deliberately incendiary. An experiment would be if we decided to lock down 50% of the schools in a school district and allowed the other 50% to operate as normal. An experiment is something that you do with planning and foresight and signed consent by the participants. An experiment also has predetermined metrics and measures of success and failure that are accepted by the experts in the field.
To say the lockdowns were a failed experiment is pure clickbait meant to anger people, and you fell for it, OP.
All this, exactly.
this is such a funny take but it’s pretty much the only one Democrats are left with. they have given up arguing that lockdowns worked or had no harms. now the official line is “what else could we have done??? mistakes were made but there was no way to know.” Another line about school closures is “Well there was no way teachers would agree to come back so we had to do virtual.”
Ok this is not life and death to you but politics, Democrats vs Republicans.
Buy anyway, just because you think the lock downs were not helpful and feel really strongly about doesn't mean that your thoughts are true. More people would have died without the lockdowns. This may not matter to you but this mattered to government officials. Just because you think COVID was only fatal to the very sick already and to the elderly doesn't mean lockdowns were not worth it.
Revisiting and evaluating history is hard and evaluating anyone's conclusion about history needs to be done with a grain of salt because evaluators with an agenda pick and choose with outcomes and events to focus on. In your conclusion you focus on being inconvenienced, in my conclusion I focus on lives saved. Regarding school, kids were in online school.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:45
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.
Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.
Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.
What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?
I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.
I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.
I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.
DP. I don't know if I agree with that, but we need an urgent and ongoing evaluation of where students stand now and each year going forward to inform future decisions. My primary concern with the way public schools handled COVID is not necessarily that decision-makers were trying to protect the health, particularly the health of adults who would be in school buildings, but how little consideration has been given to the consequences of that protection for students. If unprecedented measures were needed to protect life, why weren't unprecedented options for flexibility or remediation considered (even for a fleeting second) to mitigate harm to children? With the seasonality we have seen, school in the summers and closures around the winter holidays would have mitigated risk and allowed some normalcy, yet that was never on the table.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:42
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The best comparison would be Sweden vs other Nordic countries. It does not look like Sweden did worse than other Nordic countries given it is the most populous of them.
Yes they did. Their mortality rate was much higher.
Not a complete overview, but from the article:
The infection rate for teachers in Sweden, where most schools stayed open, was no higher than the infection rate for teachers in Finland, which had closed its schools.
Because teachers were out living their lives like everyone else. They just wanted to work from home too and didn’t want to admit they don’t actually have work from home jobs.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:38
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The best comparison would be Sweden vs other Nordic countries. It does not look like Sweden did worse than other Nordic countries given it is the most populous of them.
Yes they did. Their mortality rate was much higher.
Not a complete overview, but from the article:
The infection rate for teachers in Sweden, where most schools stayed open, was no higher than the infection rate for teachers in Finland, which had closed its schools.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:31
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.
Because it was an EMERGENCY situation.
Having known several people who died or spent months in the hospital with Covid it was not something most of us wanted to just take our chances with.
Questions and dissent are most important during an emergency. No you don’t get to memory hole this.
What do you think should happen today? Are you advocating for anything in particular?
I think laws should be passed that require schools to remain open. Public health authories should be sent to school to understand risks and benefits. Strong protection of 1A rights in the pending Supreme Court case. Fixing the learning loss is going to be a long term project but the new understanding of the importance of phonics is a great step. We need to do the same for math.
I agree with this. What happened in DC public schools and many other schools needs to be addressed. The idea that publicly funded public schools can just close for an entire school year, is insane.
I think we need rules in place linking prolonged school closures with teacher furloughs. You want to keep the schools closed for a year or more? Okay, then we need to furlough the staff and the money saved should be sent to families as a tax rebate that can be used toward private school, tutoring, etc.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:24
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It kept my family safe so I got no issues with it.
My elderly parents and in-laws have never had Covid, thanks in part to the lockdowns, and also because of their own caution. If it hadn't been a national public health precaution, they probably wouldn't have been as careful.
You are right they probably would not have been as cautious without mandatory closures and masking, because post-vaccine, this was the group who most quickly resumed socializing, travel, and quit masking.
It was really weird when my kid's preschool was still doing mandatory quarantines if anyone tested positive, and required masking of all 3 and 4 year olds, but my parents in their 70s with multiple comorbidities were signing up for cruises.
I do think the initial shutdowns were largely done to protect the elderly and other vulnerable people. The part I can't explain is why many precautions continued well into 2021 and even 2022 (mandatory masking in DCPS was lifted in the spring of 2022). It's bizarre, and I think that's where we should focus the questions about how to do better next time.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:24
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.
There was NON STOP questioning of the precautions. It's just that at the time, when the wrong answer had a possible outcome of death, a large number of people were not in support of increasing risk.
I now believe--based on information we now have--that we could have reduced restrictions sooner. I also think it was understandable and appropriate that we didn't do thatat the time--based on limited information. Both of those thing can be true.
I hope we get really, REALLY good long-term studies from this pandemic, and I hope we can take lessons that will help in the next pandemic. But like PP, I see no value in being "angry" about Covid response. I wish people would let go of their anger, or desire to "win" the Covid Debate, so we can all move forward together with lessons learned.
You think it was understandable and appropriate that children could not return to school buildings on a full-time basis until the fall of 2021? Just trying to understand your position.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:23
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.
What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.
Oh so you think we should have been more like China with peoples doors nailed shut?
Dissent was absolutely impossible on a social level and as we know from the social media 1A case pending at the Supreme Court, the government was extremely closely involved in getting viewpoints on covid deleted from social media. Even if that case finds there was no 1A violation, it absolutely shows that the government acted to literally delete opposing views.
Where in my post did I say anything remotely close to nailing people’s doors shut. I said people could have dissenting views here and they did. I also have no idea what the government did on social media. I personally saw plenty of dissent that wasn’t deleted.
I had mild covid, a sore throat, and it was deleted every single time if I mentioned it as my own experience. This was not allowed to be discussed at all, here.
Yep. And JFC we still have a COVID sticky message on this health forum about "Anti-Vax posts will not be tolerated." Same thing on the travel forum. Can we please get rid of it????
No, because vaccines - including the Covid vaccine - save millions of lives.
Example - babies born to pregnant women who receive the Covid vaccine during pregnancy are much less likely to develop a severe case of Covid and be hospitalized during the first months of life.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/72/wr/mm7239a3.htm?s_cid=mm7239a3_w
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:20
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
The fortunate kids were in the south and were able to keep going to school.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:20
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
No we did not do “the best we could.” In DC the public schools were closed meanwhile the private schools (mostly rich & white) stayed open. And if you criticized that you were called racist and genocidal. And then DC teachers went on strike to keep SN and high risk kids out of school. It was terrible.
And the President at that time was scheduling super spreader events that trickled COVID into the private schools and into the DC-MD-VA community.
We did not follow protocols here.
When he did get COVID he got the best healthcare and latest healthcare methods to survive while others were left to die or suffer.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 13:13
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.
There was NON STOP questioning of the precautions. It's just that at the time, when the wrong answer had a possible outcome of death, a large number of people were not in support of increasing risk.
I now believe--based on information we now have--that we could have reduced restrictions sooner. I also think it was understandable and appropriate that we didn't do thatat the time--based on limited information. Both of those thing can be true.
I hope we get really, REALLY good long-term studies from this pandemic, and I hope we can take lessons that will help in the next pandemic. But like PP, I see no value in being "angry" about Covid response. I wish people would let go of their anger, or desire to "win" the Covid Debate, so we can all move forward together with lessons learned.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 12:48
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:The best comparison would be Sweden vs other Nordic countries. It does not look like Sweden did worse than other Nordic countries given it is the most populous of them.
Yes they did. Their mortality rate was much higher.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 11:52
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:So this is about you being in a snit fit over school closings?
Newsflash: Teachers were not going to return to the classroom because they were the exact demographic Covid was killing.
No they were not the “exact demographic.” And of course somehow teachers in private schools, Florida, the UK and Sweden returned. This heightened risk for teachers somehow only existed in blue state cities.
We all know what happened - the teachers unions imposed on the Biden Admin to keep schools closed and “keep poor kids out of school” became the bizarro campaign of the left.
I don’t think that’s exactly it, most of the school closures took place under Trump. He didn’t leave office until Jan. 2021. By February and March schools were starting to return “hybrid,” even the long holdouts like FCPS. It was definitely political. Like they wanted to be diametrically opposed to whatever Trump/R’s were supporting just for the sake of being opposed. Plus a big dose of inertia, plus denial about how bad the closures would be in the long run, plus putting labor interests over kid interests.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 11:46
Subject: COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Our healthcare system was very close to collapsing. That is why we did what we did.
No it was not close to collapsing.
Did you work in the ER during, say, the heights of omicron? Or even December 2020? Because omg. It was not sustainable.
I seem to remember a whole bunch of emergency field hospitals that were never or barely used.
+1000000
They weren’t even used. But apparently our healthcare system was collapsing. Riiiiiiiiight.
First off there are many different forms of healthcare that have absolutely nothing to do with Covid. Logically how could Covid collapse the healthcare system? That doesn’t make sense.
Anonymous
11/19/2023 11:45
Subject: Re:COVID Lockdowns Were a Giant Experiment. It Was a Failure.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Honestly at this point who cares. We did the best we could under a unique and heretofore inexperienced event. This is for scientists to be studying to plan for future pandemics. Getting angry now is ridiculous.
The problem is we weren’t allowed to ask questions and dissenting views were discouraged. Anytime you’re not allowed to ask questions or push back on something you should be concerned. The climate at the time didn’t allow questioning of precautions.
What are you talking about? There were plenty of people who questioned everything and did whatever they wanted anyway. It’s not like the police came and arrested people for expressing dissenting views. Even in early covid when people were dying, plenty of people questioned why they had to be inconvenienced to save other people’s lives and behaved accordingly. Lockdowns were never going to work in this country because we are a narcissistic and selfish society who rarely behave for the greater good of community.
Oh so you think we should have been more like China with peoples doors nailed shut?
Dissent was absolutely impossible on a social level and as we know from the social media 1A case pending at the Supreme Court, the government was extremely closely involved in getting viewpoints on covid deleted from social media. Even if that case finds there was no 1A violation, it absolutely shows that the government acted to literally delete opposing views.
Where in my post did I say anything remotely close to nailing people’s doors shut. I said people could have dissenting views here and they did. I also have no idea what the government did on social media. I personally saw plenty of dissent that wasn’t deleted.
I had mild covid, a sore throat, and it was deleted every single time if I mentioned it as my own experience. This was not allowed to be discussed at all, here.
Yep. And JFC we still have a COVID sticky message on this health forum about "Anti-Vax posts will not be tolerated." Same thing on the travel forum. Can we please get rid of it????