Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They travel in packs to brunch and on IG-inspired vacations. They talk about themselves and their own feelings ad nauseum. How would children even fit into their lives?

[Brunch Granny has entered the chat]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting WAPO article -
"Millennials aren't having kids"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/11/03/millennials-only-children/
I love seeing the data on this. It really follows closely what I see in my personal life among my friends. What do you think are the reasons? I don't think it will turn around, millennial are rapidly approaching 40 or are already there.

It is very obvious to me ( Gen x) Women are expected to earn and make a good living AND also be the perfect homemaker/wife/mom. Until men step up women are smart not to fall into the trap.

+1 another Genx woman.

I tell my teen DD to make sure to marry a man who is willing to step up at home because women cannot have it all, and to even achieve something, they need support at home.

I have two kids, but when I was younger, if I had to choose between having kids and having a career, I would choose career because I was never into having kids, though I adore the kids I do have.

Maybe if the people in power start paying attention to the declining birth rates in the next 20 years they will provide more maternity leave, provide more tax credits for kids and childcare, and provide more funding.

Why do that when you can just outlaw birth control and abortion?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

+100. This is also why there’s a lot to be said for dating intentionally for marriage in college/grad school and not writing off young marriage as something that only backwoods, flyover state rubes do. Men who are traditionally minded (in that they are on board with, or even actively prefer, a wife who wants to stay home to raise kids while they support the family financially) still exist, but they are off the market early.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Interesting WAPO article -
"Millennials aren't having kids"
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2023/11/03/millennials-only-children/
I love seeing the data on this. It really follows closely what I see in my personal life among my friends. What do you think are the reasons? I don't think it will turn around, millennial are rapidly approaching 40 or are already there.

It is very obvious to me ( Gen x) Women are expected to earn and make a good living AND also be the perfect homemaker/wife/mom. Until men step up women are smart not to fall into the trap.

+1 another Genx woman.

I tell my teen DD to make sure to marry a man who is willing to step up at home because women cannot have it all, and to even achieve something, they need support at home.

I have two kids, but when I was younger, if I had to choose between having kids and having a career, I would choose career because I was never into having kids, though I adore the kids I do have.

Maybe if the people in power start paying attention to the declining birth rates in the next 20 years they will provide more maternity leave, provide more tax credits for kids and childcare, and provide more funding.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

I totally agree with this, especially the bolded. There's also this very specific component to it that I think hits women right when they are postpartum where you look at what you are expected to do just in that first year after the baby is born and it is INSANE. Even if you are a white collar professional with a decent maternity leave, you are supposed to line up full time care for your baby, start storing up breast milk since of course you have to breastfeed, then return to work full time one day while leaving your infant in the care of someone else, hit the ground running at work with no decline in productivity or focus, pump breastmilk throughout the day while working, manage whoever is taking care of your baby, continue to stay on top of doctors visits, your baby's health, weaning, keep them in diapers and clothes as they grow, pay attention to developmental milestones, etc. Oh and by the way, you are supposed to do all this while pretending like your hormones are not on some kind of Level 10 roller coaster ride from hell, and if you didn't know that hormones can continue to have major swings through the first year of motherhood, particularly for breastfeeding moms and especially related to changes in feeding and sleeping schedules (which are heavily impacted by return to work), well, you're about to find out.

It was staring down that gauntlet that made me decide it was a scam. If you asked men to do that, they'd just never have children. Ever. The fact that so many women I know do and it's treated as normal and *expected* in many circles is nuts to me.

I couldn't do it. I think I'm lower functioning than other high achieving women and I just couldn't do it. I had PPD and cried every day and just did not have the will to get myself through that gauntlet. I quit my job, we tightened our belts and I SAHMed for two years while doing small freelance jobs to help out financially, and then I returned to work part time. And that's what ensures that I don't lose my mind and my family functions, but it also means that my career has hit a brick wall and will probably never recover from it. So I did do an end run around the scam so much as reallocate the BS that is working motherhood in a different way. Yay?

I love being a mom but I think the expectations placed on moms today are just stupid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

+100. This is also why there’s a lot to be said for dating intentionally for marriage in college/grad school and not writing off young marriage as something that only backwoods, flyover state rubes do. Men who are traditionally minded (in that they are on board with, or even actively prefer, a wife who wants to stay home to raise kids while they support the family financially) still exist, but they are off the market early.

I’m from a flyover city and find my friends who attended state colleges and married young have actually done better financially on average compared to friends I’ve met in DC. They also appear happier but that is difficult to judge. This is more from a financial perspective and ignoring other measures of success. It’s like these women knew to lock down a normal guy early on who would be a good provider and support a stable home. A lot of these men now own small businesses, continued in the family business etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

OMG so why am I alive???

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

OMG so why am I alive???

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a millennial and chalked up the lack of kids to being in a high-achieving cohort. Maybe half of us have kids? The other half aren't married. I don't many that are childless by choice (as far as I know). My friends both gay and straight that are married by in large have kids usually 2-3. But I myself hit total unexplained secondary infertility at 35 so have 2 kids but am unlikely to have 3.

My husband is in the military and in his friend group we only know 2 childless by choice couples. Most men have 1 if not 2 sets of kids by different women thanks to the damage the many years in war did on their personal lives.

It’s funny how individual the definition of “achievement” is because if you’re in your 30s unmarried and/or married and childless for a reason other than infertility I would define this as a massive life failure. As would most of my “cohort” (all who have good high paying jobs).

Birthing babies is not an "achievement".

It's the most important achievement. Passing on one's genes is the reason for being.

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

+100. This is also why there’s a lot to be said for dating intentionally for marriage in college/grad school and not writing off young marriage as something that only backwoods, flyover state rubes do. Men who are traditionally minded (in that they are on board with, or even actively prefer, a wife who wants to stay home to raise kids while they support the family financially) still exist, but they are off the market early.

I’m from a flyover city and find my friends who attended state colleges and married young have actually done better financially on average compared to friends I’ve met in DC. They also appear happier but that is difficult to judge. This is more from a financial perspective and ignoring other measures of success. It’s like these women knew to lock down a normal guy early on who would be a good provider and support a stable home. A lot of these men now own small businesses, continued in the family business etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

+100. This is also why there’s a lot to be said for dating intentionally for marriage in college/grad school and not writing off young marriage as something that only backwoods, flyover state rubes do. Men who are traditionally minded (in that they are on board with, or even actively prefer, a wife who wants to stay home to raise kids while they support the family financially) still exist, but they are off the market early.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t want to derail this thread so let’s please not get into Ali Wong and her marriage, but I just wanted to mention that I started thinking seriously about this after watching I think it was her Baby Cobra set? Where she talks about wanting to be a SAHM mom because she thinks being a working woman is a scam. The current configuration where women continue to be expected to be beautiful by misogynistic standards, sexually available at all times, do all the childrearing, all of the mental load of running a household, AND get a degree and work full time is NOT what feminism fought for or is about. It is a scam.

Dating in my late twenties was illuminating to me because I found that misogyny and sexism were as prevalent as ever but look different now. Highly educated and high achieving Millennial dudes all wanted a woman who earned more than them and wanted to freeze her eggs and wait until her late 30s to have kids so they could maximize their own time to travel and party and focus solely on themselves. They openly looked down on women who wanted to have children or who didn’t prioritize high earning careers. They claimed it’s because they were feminists but really they just wanted women to take care of them and wanted zero family responsibilities. They also had zero regard for how hard it is for women physically and emotionally to battle infertility in their late 30s and 40s in order to buy their manchildren husbands a few extra years of party time.

This is one take on it.

I experienced something different. My husband values my career and success. He doesn’t think I need to give it up because I had children. He thinks women are capable and wanted a spouse or girlfriend who is his equal intellectually. He also thinks parenting is hard work and that an office job is easier than watching young kids all day. I can’t imagine dating in the 50s or even 60s where marriage automatically meant giving up a career and staying home with kids.

I assume you don’t have kids yet and may change your tune after they arrive. Working and an income = freedom.