Anonymous
10/26/2023 21:37
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Exactly.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:When I invite people I care about to enjoy a meal with me at my home or a restaurant, I want them to be comfortable and I want to enjoy time in their presence.
At home, being a host isn’t about the host imposing their rules on their guests. The host is supposed to accommodate their guests.
I don’t tell anyone what they can or cannot do in regards to their beliefs. If I invited a vegan to my home, am I going to insist that they eat meat because I do and my wishes are running the get together, because I am the host? No, I accommodate my guest by serving vegan dishes, because I invited my vegan guest to dinner. When I invite someone to my house, I am making a huge effort to provide them with a nice memory.
I consider it a privilege for my friends to feel comfortable around me and to live their lives authentically.
If I care about someone enough to schedule a meal with them as a pleasant activity, the last thing I am going to do is stress out over prayer and who tells who what to do, etc.
You are going to make a big deal and ruin a get together over something that isn’t a big deal? Somehow I don’t think people who would do this really respect or care about their friends or family.
And remember: the host accommodates the guests, not the other way around.
Disagree in these circumstances
If you personally as a host want to accommodate your vegan guests by planning a vegan centric menu then that’s great for you. Nevertheless if a vegan is invited to a dinner as one of a larger group it’s just plain rude for them to expect/request the host prepare a vegan-centric meal or to make a big show over their diet restrictions during the meal. The same principle is true for an invited dinner guest expecting everyone to accommodate them in observing a collective prayer before a meal rather than just discretely saying a silent prayer themselves.
On the flip side, as a vegan hosting a meal you shouldn’t be expected to prepare meat dishes for your carnivore loving friends and should feel free to serve them a meal adapted to your diet, just as you should be free to continue to observe a tradition of saying a collective grace before a meal in your own home even if guests are present m.
I think the equivalent situation here would be for the vegan to bring their own food which is appropriate if the host has not prepared any or enough vegan food (say, the guest wants something with protein and not just lettuce and carrots). If the food is not vegan, the vegan cannot eat, due to their beliefs. Similarly, the religious person does not feel right eating without saying a prayer thanking God. In both cases, the vegan/prayerful person should be respectful and quiet, not making a big show. However, they should be able to say a verbal prayer if they wish, or explain they have their own tofu dish, and everyone should respect them with no obligation to participate.
Mostly agree but (as you suggest) the vegan/praying guests should strive to be as unobtrusive as possible in meeting their specific needs without unduly imposing on others or usurping the host.
As a Christian myself I’d personally reject the idea that a prayer before meals must be voiced out loud in front of a non religious group and certainly wouldn’t expect others to wait to eat.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 20:13
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Guests can say thanks in their head.
We were having dinner with friends in our home. As usual we were all talking as we served ourselves. All of a sudden everything stopped while they held hands and prayed.
A silent prayer lets everyone else do as they normally do as well.
We were having dinner with friends in our home. As usual we were all talking as we served ourselves. All of a sudden everything stopped while they held hands and prayed.
A silent prayer lets everyone else do as they normally do as well.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 20:05
Subject: Re:Help settle a debate about saying grace
I don’t invite religious people to my house. Problem solved.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 19:58
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you feel compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Why would you not want your friends to say a 15-30 prayer of gratitude and thanks in your home (where you invited them to be) and respect their beliefs?
People DO have the freedom to practice their religion (or to not practice a religion) and it’s a great privilege to have the freedom to do so.
Why are we against freedom?
Why is freedom a bad thing?
People are free to speak and practice whatever religion they choose- or choose to not practice a religion.
I don’t think I have ever encountered people who think this is a negative thing before, ever.
“The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
I mean sure, but the rest of us don't have to sit around quietly with our heads bowed. If someone at my table wants to say a prayer silently before they eat with their head bowed and hands folded, go for it. I don't feel the need to stop my conversation with the person next to me for that and bow my head along with them. That's my freedom not to and I'm sure you agree with me.
I mean personally I am not going to eat until everyone at the table is ready to eat. If we go in a group to a restaurant, order in a group, and another diner’s food is late, I don’t eat until they have the meal they ordered. I think it’s rude to eat in front of a friend who is waiting for their food and hungry also. That’s just my level of manners and empathy, and I know it’s not something everyone else feels necessary.
Of course you have every right to not pray and can eat whenever you wish. You have no responsibility or duty to pray with anyone.
That’s why it’s ridiculous to debate whether or not we can “allow” someone to pray at our homes or at a restaurant.
I am glad to live in a country where everyone can live their life as they wish. It’s truly a privilege to have these freedoms.
op should realize that they don’t control what their guests do, and to try to control them is exceptionally rude, especially as the purpose of inviting someone to your home is to have a mutually pleasant experience and share a meal.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 19:44
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Agree with the second person. Just keep your stuff to yourself. Certainly, your God can hear you saying grace in your head. Not much need to impose it on others, is there?
No and in fact bible readers will be familiar with Matthew 6:5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."
Anonymous
10/26/2023 19:41
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you feel compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Why would you not want your friends to say a 15-30 prayer of gratitude and thanks in your home (where you invited them to be) and respect their beliefs?
People DO have the freedom to practice their religion (or to not practice a religion) and it’s a great privilege to have the freedom to do so.
Why are we against freedom?
Why is freedom a bad thing?
People are free to speak and practice whatever religion they choose- or choose to not practice a religion.
I don’t think I have ever encountered people who think this is a negative thing before, ever.
“The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
I mean sure, but the rest of us don't have to sit around quietly with our heads bowed. If someone at my table wants to say a prayer silently before they eat with their head bowed and hands folded, go for it. I don't feel the need to stop my conversation with the person next to me for that and bow my head along with them. That's my freedom not to and I'm sure you agree with me.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 19:24
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
What religion sacrifices animals before eating? Do you do that at your friend’s houses?
Anonymous
10/26/2023 19:01
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you feel compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Why would you not want your friends to say a 15-30 prayer of gratitude and thanks in your home (where you invited them to be) and respect their beliefs?
People DO have the freedom to practice their religion (or to not practice a religion) and it’s a great privilege to have the freedom to do so.
Why are we against freedom?
Why is freedom a bad thing?
People are free to speak and practice whatever religion they choose- or choose to not practice a religion.
I don’t think I have ever encountered people who think this is a negative thing before, ever.
“The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
Hey, as long as you don’t object to my sacrificing a white cock at your next dinner party, as per my religious beliefs, we’re all good.
So you practice Santeria?
Offerings are called ebbó[214] (or ebó),[215] and are given to the oricha, ancestral spirits, to a person's own ori, and sometimes to the earth.[216] These offerings can consist of fruit and other foodstuffs, liquor, flowers, candles, money, or slaughtered animals.[217] Divination is often used to determine the exact nature of the offering;[218] initiates are supposed to provide offerings on a regular basis, and at least once a year.[219] Given to strengthen the supernatural forces, to thank them, or as a supplication,[220] they help form a reciprocal relationship with these entities in the hope of receiving something in return.[221] If this fails to materialise, practitioners may resort to several explanations: that the details of the ritual were incorrect, that the priest or priestess carrying out the rite lacked sufficient aché, or that the wrong ebbó was provided for the situation.[222]
Animal sacrifice is called matanza,[223] with the person carrying it out termed the matador.[224] This is usually a man,[225] with menstruating women prohibited from involvement.[133] Birds—including guinea fowl, chickens, and doves—are commonly sacrificed, usually by having their throats slit or their heads twisted and ripped off.[226] For rituals of greater importance, sacrifices are often of four-legged animals.[73] Some practitioners describe the killing of animals as an acceptable substitute to human sacrifice,[227] and in Cuba there have been persistent rumours of children being sacrificed in Santería rites.[228] The oricha and egun are believed to "eat" the blood of the victim;[229] the latter's lifeforce is deemed to transfer to the oricha, thus strengthening its aché.[230] An animal that struggles to avoid being killed is sometimes understood as having particular strength which will then pass to the oricha.[230]
Once killed, the animals' severed heads may be placed on top of the sopera belonging to the oricha to which the sacrifice has been directed.[231] After the carcass has been butchered, some of the organs—known as acheses—may be cooked and offered to the oricha;[232] other parts will be eaten by practitioners.[233] Some of the blood may be collected and added to omiero, an infusion of herbs and water.[224] Believed to contain much aché,[234] this liquid is used for removing malevolent influences and in ceremonies for baptising ritual tools.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santería#:~:text=in%20the%20pipes.-,Offerings%20and%20animal%20sacrifice,and%20sometimes%20to%20the%20earth.
If not Santeria, what is your religion and what is the purpose of killing an animal at a dinner party?
Anonymous
10/26/2023 18:59
Subject: Re:Help settle a debate about saying grace
Someone I know says it in a whisper to herself in a mixed group - I think that is appropriate. You do what you want that way - and you don't have to forgo it, but it doesn't impact / force it on the others.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 18:44
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Agree with the second person. Just keep your stuff to yourself. Certainly, your God can hear you saying grace in your head. Not much need to impose it on others, is there?
Anonymous
10/26/2023 18:44
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you feel compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Why would you not want your friends to say a 15-30 prayer of gratitude and thanks in your home (where you invited them to be) and respect their beliefs?
People DO have the freedom to practice their religion (or to not practice a religion) and it’s a great privilege to have the freedom to do so.
Why are we against freedom?
Why is freedom a bad thing?
People are free to speak and practice whatever religion they choose- or choose to not practice a religion.
I don’t think I have ever encountered people who think this is a negative thing before, ever.
“The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
Hey, as long as you don’t object to my sacrificing a white cock at your next dinner party, as per my religious beliefs, we’re all good.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 18:41
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you feel compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Why would you not want your friends to say a 15-30 prayer of gratitude and thanks in your home (where you invited them to be) and respect their beliefs?
People DO have the freedom to practice their religion (or to not practice a religion) and it’s a great privilege to have the freedom to do so.
Why are we against freedom?
Why is freedom a bad thing?
People are free to speak and practice whatever religion they choose- or choose to not practice a religion.
I don’t think I have ever encountered people who think this is a negative thing before, ever.
“The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
Holy smokes. I am not inviting this person to my house for any reason.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 18:37
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you feel compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Why would you not want your friends to say a 15-30 prayer of gratitude and thanks in your home (where you invited them to be) and respect their beliefs?
People DO have the freedom to practice their religion (or to not practice a religion) and it’s a great privilege to have the freedom to do so.
Why are we against freedom?
Why is freedom a bad thing?
People are free to speak and practice whatever religion they choose- or choose to not practice a religion.
I don’t think I have ever encountered people who think this is a negative thing before, ever.
“The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819.
"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807.
"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808.
"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815.
"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 16:59
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
I think you should go with the hosts preference. That is the polite thing to do. At the same time, I would not object to a friend wanting to say grace in my home. If everyone is reasonable, then things are fine. But as the another post in this forum shows, many people here feel like it's their RIGHT to do whatever/whenever in the name of freedom.
Anonymous
10/26/2023 16:58
Subject: Help settle a debate about saying grace
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You don't have to respect their beliefs, but there is no way to respectfully ask people to refrain from praying. They will be offended. There's a big difference between not being religious and being so offended by other people's religion that you fee compelled to prevent them from practicing it in your presence.
Exactly.
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:When I invite people I care about to enjoy a meal with me at my home or a restaurant, I want them to be comfortable and I want to enjoy time in their presence.
At home, being a host isn’t about the host imposing their rules on their guests. The host is supposed to accommodate their guests.
I don’t tell anyone what they can or cannot do in regards to their beliefs. If I invited a vegan to my home, am I going to insist that they eat meat because I do and my wishes are running the get together, because I am the host? No, I accommodate my guest by serving vegan dishes, because I invited my vegan guest to dinner. When I invite someone to my house, I am making a huge effort to provide them with a nice memory.
I consider it a privilege for my friends to feel comfortable around me and to live their lives authentically.
If I care about someone enough to schedule a meal with them as a pleasant activity, the last thing I am going to do is stress out over prayer and who tells who what to do, etc.
You are going to make a big deal and ruin a get together over something that isn’t a big deal? Somehow I don’t think people who would do this really respect or care about their friends or family.
And remember: the host accommodates the guests, not the other way around.
Disagree in these circumstances
If you personally as a host want to accommodate your vegan guests by planning a vegan centric menu then that’s great for you. Nevertheless if a vegan is invited to a dinner as one of a larger group it’s just plain rude for them to expect/request the host prepare a vegan-centric meal or to make a big show over their diet restrictions during the meal. The same principle is true for an invited dinner guest expecting everyone to accommodate them in observing a collective prayer before a meal rather than just discretely saying a silent prayer themselves.
On the flip side, as a vegan hosting a meal you shouldn’t be expected to prepare meat dishes for your carnivore loving friends and should feel free to serve them a meal adapted to your diet, just as you should be free to continue to observe a tradition of saying a collective grace before a meal in your own home even if guests are present m.
I think the equivalent situation here would be for the vegan to bring their own food which is appropriate if the host has not prepared any or enough vegan food (say, the guest wants something with protein and not just lettuce and carrots). If the food is not vegan, the vegan cannot eat, due to their beliefs. Similarly, the religious person does not feel right eating without saying a prayer thanking God. In both cases, the vegan/prayerful person should be respectful and quiet, not making a big show. However, they should be able to say a verbal prayer if they wish, or explain they have their own tofu dish, and everyone should respect them with no obligation to participate.
This is a great analogy, pp. Another analogy would be the Jewish or Muslim person bringing a chicken dish to the pig roast.
Who on earth would invite observant Jews or Muslims to a pig roast?