Anonymous
Post 08/24/2023 07:32     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Her plan isn’t awful but to make anywhere near that money she has to do biglaw and it probably follows she will hate biglaw. It’s not really for people who think about their desires and preferences. Your kid seems to think life cares about her wants - I’d fix that first.

As a former biglaw senior associate who went in house, I know a lot of PhDs who did patent litigation. The issue is it’s really hard to get hours and most of them were pushed up and out. The only one who made partner was a Harvard PhD who got a JD simultaneously, not later.

It’s well known in biglaw PhDs can’t really hack the workload and speed.

Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 23:20     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:no more degrees unless full scholarship

No. She needs to go to a good law school and they don't offer full scholarships. She will make lots of money at a firm and it won't be hard to pay off loans. She has a PhD in CS. That's super valuable.

--JD, PhD who paid off my loans in <2 years after law school


This is false. I got a full ride to a T10 law school based on my grades and lsat. If you are a HYS candidate, and you have an interesting background (like a PhD) you can get a merit award at a top 10 school, including a full scholarship. It’s true that HYS don’t offer merit aid, but you don’t have to go to HYS to get a lucrative legal job.

If ops daughter asked me for advice, I would tell her to take the lsat and try to get a great score. With a good score and a good application, I think she could be a strong candidate, including for scholarships. I know multiple phds who went to law school, and some of them are happy.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 22:55     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
OP, if you are still around I can try to answer any specific questions you have. I have a PhD in chemistry and then went to law school to become a patent attorney. PhDs are not uncommon in patent law, and for a lot of us law is a second career. I enjoy the work—I get to learn new tech all the time without having to be the one actually sitting in the lab running experiments.

Pay varies on the career path you choose. In Biglaw, most places pay on a scale depending on the year of graduation. Patent litigation is where the big money is, but patent prosecution can also be a rewarding and interesting career for some people. The USPTO is always hiring for examiners, which is a good way of getting your foot in the door. Big tech also has armies of patent lawyers who generally make less than biglaw but still around 200 plus.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 22:05     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why does she have a PhD in CS? That's totally unnecessary. Does she work in academia? If so, she needs to jump to private industry to make more.

Law degree is a waste of time and money. Attorneys that make 500K hate their lives. My friends in patent law were making less than me starting out in pharma sales.


I don't understand this comment. She went to one of the best universities in the world and got a PhD in an area she's interested in.

She didn't go into academia because she said she didn't want to publish all the time. I think she should go into academia, but now she's got this patent law idea planted in her head.



The patent attorneys who make the kind of money she wants work in biglaw. Small shops and solo practitioners are not making $500,000.

In biglaw, 80 hour work weeks are the minimum. And they are basically “publishing” all the time in the sense that you are writing constantly. So if she doesn’t like the idea of pumping out journal articles at the rate of 3-4 per year, I don't see how she will like researching and writing patent applications and motions at a rate of a dozen a WEEK.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 21:49     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why does she have a PhD in CS? That's totally unnecessary. Does she work in academia? If so, she needs to jump to private industry to make more.

Law degree is a waste of time and money. Attorneys that make 500K hate their lives. My friends in patent law were making less than me starting out in pharma sales.


I don't understand this comment. She went to one of the best universities in the world and got a PhD in an area she's interested in.

She didn't go into academia because she said she didn't want to publish all the time. I think she should go into academia, but now she's got this patent law idea planted in her head.



Respectfully, she ought to go to therapy or a career coach and figure out what she actually wants to do. 3 years of law school and the cost associated with it when she can't afford to buy a house now doesn't seem like a wise investment. Law is a business. You're either making money for other people or bringing in enough business to support yourself (partner) and others (associates).



Therapy?! For some career indecision? lol

Yes, please let me talk to a therapist about whether I should go to law school.


She has a PhD, which took a lot of time and effort to get, and she doesn't like what she's doing after all of that. I don't think three more years of law school is going to help.


Well, I know plenty of IP litigators and FDA regulatory attorneys with hard science PhDs. They're very happy and successful with their legal careers. As someone who also came into law as a second career, I'm quite happy I did and I'm damn glad that no one suggested I get therapy because I wanted to change careers. There's nothing wrong with changing career paths.

Maybe take your therapy suggestions and shove them somewhere the sun doesn't shine.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 20:03     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why does she have a PhD in CS? That's totally unnecessary. Does she work in academia? If so, she needs to jump to private industry to make more.

Law degree is a waste of time and money. Attorneys that make 500K hate their lives. My friends in patent law were making less than me starting out in pharma sales.


I don't understand this comment. She went to one of the best universities in the world and got a PhD in an area she's interested in.

She didn't go into academia because she said she didn't want to publish all the time. I think she should go into academia, but now she's got this patent law idea planted in her head.



Respectfully, she ought to go to therapy or a career coach and figure out what she actually wants to do. 3 years of law school and the cost associated with it when she can't afford to buy a house now doesn't seem like a wise investment. Law is a business. You're either making money for other people or bringing in enough business to support yourself (partner) and others (associates).



Therapy?! For some career indecision? lol

Yes, please let me talk to a therapist about whether I should go to law school.


She has a PhD, which took a lot of time and effort to get, and she doesn't like what she's doing after all of that. I don't think three more years of law school is going to help.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 11:49     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why does she have a PhD in CS? That's totally unnecessary. Does she work in academia? If so, she needs to jump to private industry to make more.

Law degree is a waste of time and money. Attorneys that make 500K hate their lives. My friends in patent law were making less than me starting out in pharma sales.


I don't understand this comment. She went to one of the best universities in the world and got a PhD in an area she's interested in.

She didn't go into academia because she said she didn't want to publish all the time. I think she should go into academia, but now she's got this patent law idea planted in her head.



Respectfully, she ought to go to therapy or a career coach and figure out what she actually wants to do. 3 years of law school and the cost associated with it when she can't afford to buy a house now doesn't seem like a wise investment. Law is a business. You're either making money for other people or bringing in enough business to support yourself (partner) and others (associates).



Therapy?! For some career indecision? lol

Yes, please let me talk to a therapist about whether I should go to law school.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 08:25     Subject: Re:DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:I am a patent attorney here in DC. PHD in CS would get you hired at many IP firms. Our starting salary is around 200K. If she worked hard, she would get into the $300K as an associate for sure, which allows loans to get paid off pretty quickly. Most of our young associates with loans pay off upwards of 100K a year to get rid of them quickly. During the summer you can work at a firm and we pay $4000 per week this year for 10 weeks. So you can make over 40K for the summer and that helps with that last year to keep the debt down. Also many firms will let you work part time your third year so you can easily make more.

To make $500k you need to do well as a partner, but assuming she does well in law school she can make enough in years 1-5 to pay off the loans and then either stay at a firm or go in house or to the government. Not crazy if it is something she thinks she would be good at and enjoy


Sounds like prosecution (writing patents). 300k is basically a 3 year associate guaranteed salary in big law which requires litigation realistically.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 08:24     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Oh yeah, academics suck. They fight over the most mundane, pointless stuff.

Former academic who currently funds them
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 08:23     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
She could do years at the patent office and then work for a big firm that does cs patent law and make lots of money too.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 08:00     Subject: Re:DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:She’s an adult let her figure this out.


I know. But I'm curious. I'd like to have something to say to her when she brings it up. I've been (subtly) encouraging her to go into academia, but she says she has no interest in academia. She enjoyed being a TA, and she's even an adjunct at a college near where she works. I'm wondering what it takes to be a patent attorney. She worked really hard to get her PhD and thinks she should make more money. She doesn't want to work for FAANG, for some reason I can't figure out.


I know quite a few people who went down the academia path and realized too late how genuinely horrible it can be. Academic in fighting, back stabbing, budget BS, whiney students who don't care, red tape -- all for zero bucks. Not a small number of these people went to law school, crushed it and are making big bucks. The life is still miserable, but at least they get paid. They miss the dream of movie style academia, but that fantasy is just that: fantasy.


+1

For the love of God, unless your DS is actually interested, PLEASE do not encourage her to become an academic. It’s full of terrible politics and sucks up all your time and energy just to not get fired (make tenure). And, ironically, academia is not actually a great place for an introvert. You have to be constantly schmoozing and networking, and you have to work with a lot of students.

— Former academic
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 07:33     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP your daughter sounds like my son, he has a CS degree but after working a couple of years he wants to pursue something else. And his new idea is not as financially lucrative, so we are encouraging him to continue to work, make good money and save until he decides on his next plan.

He is only 26, so we support him and tell him that it’s not too late to start over. but at some point it will be. DH and I think my sons issue is that he thinks he doesn’t like working this job but it is probably just that he doesn’t like working at all. We think our nerdy kid just doesn’t want to grow up.


If your son is like my DD, he might just be bored. (My DD is 28, btw.)
I think DD is bored by her job, even though she likes it, and likes her colleagues. But her PhD program was incredibly intense, and I think working at that intellectual level does something to your brain that makes the ordinary working world seem too tedious and mundane. It's a conundrum because DD was tired after working so hard on her PhD, so her current job is a bit of a break, yet she's bored (IHMO), so is starting to feel restless. I think the money is just an excuse -- she needs to feel excited about something again.


I have a suggestion that’s really out there. Have her consider teaching AP courses at the high school level. Sure, she won’t get paid much, but it will absolutely keep her engaged and intellectually stimulated. Students are really smart, and she’ll be stumped by the type of questions they ask (in a good way). If she likes being a TA, she might like this.

We have several PhDs on staff at my private high school, most in science. She may find her coworkers have a lot in common with her.

Again: it doesn’t solve the money issue, but your posts suggest that’s not necessarily what she is after. If she wants challenge, this is it.

Didn't op say her daughter is a soft spoken introvert? That doesn't sound like someone who would enjoy teaching high school. It does sound like a patent prosecutor.


I’m a soft-spoken introvert and a very successful teacher. Many of us are actually introverts.

She said she enjoyed TAing.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 07:12     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP your daughter sounds like my son, he has a CS degree but after working a couple of years he wants to pursue something else. And his new idea is not as financially lucrative, so we are encouraging him to continue to work, make good money and save until he decides on his next plan.

He is only 26, so we support him and tell him that it’s not too late to start over. but at some point it will be. DH and I think my sons issue is that he thinks he doesn’t like working this job but it is probably just that he doesn’t like working at all. We think our nerdy kid just doesn’t want to grow up.


If your son is like my DD, he might just be bored. (My DD is 28, btw.)
I think DD is bored by her job, even though she likes it, and likes her colleagues. But her PhD program was incredibly intense, and I think working at that intellectual level does something to your brain that makes the ordinary working world seem too tedious and mundane. It's a conundrum because DD was tired after working so hard on her PhD, so her current job is a bit of a break, yet she's bored (IHMO), so is starting to feel restless. I think the money is just an excuse -- she needs to feel excited about something again.


I have a suggestion that’s really out there. Have her consider teaching AP courses at the high school level. Sure, she won’t get paid much, but it will absolutely keep her engaged and intellectually stimulated. Students are really smart, and she’ll be stumped by the type of questions they ask (in a good way). If she likes being a TA, she might like this.

We have several PhDs on staff at my private high school, most in science. She may find her coworkers have a lot in common with her.

Again: it doesn’t solve the money issue, but your posts suggest that’s not necessarily what she is after. If she wants challenge, this is it.

Didn't op say her daughter is a soft spoken introvert? That doesn't sound like someone who would enjoy teaching high school. It does sound like a patent prosecutor.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 05:51     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP your daughter sounds like my son, he has a CS degree but after working a couple of years he wants to pursue something else. And his new idea is not as financially lucrative, so we are encouraging him to continue to work, make good money and save until he decides on his next plan.

He is only 26, so we support him and tell him that it’s not too late to start over. but at some point it will be. DH and I think my sons issue is that he thinks he doesn’t like working this job but it is probably just that he doesn’t like working at all. We think our nerdy kid just doesn’t want to grow up.


If your son is like my DD, he might just be bored. (My DD is 28, btw.)
I think DD is bored by her job, even though she likes it, and likes her colleagues. But her PhD program was incredibly intense, and I think working at that intellectual level does something to your brain that makes the ordinary working world seem too tedious and mundane. It's a conundrum because DD was tired after working so hard on her PhD, so her current job is a bit of a break, yet she's bored (IHMO), so is starting to feel restless. I think the money is just an excuse -- she needs to feel excited about something again.


I have a suggestion that’s really out there. Have her consider teaching AP courses at the high school level. Sure, she won’t get paid much, but it will absolutely keep her engaged and intellectually stimulated. Students are really smart, and she’ll be stumped by the type of questions they ask (in a good way). If she likes being a TA, she might like this.

We have several PhDs on staff at my private high school, most in science. She may find her coworkers have a lot in common with her.

Again: it doesn’t solve the money issue, but your posts suggest that’s not necessarily what she is after. If she wants challenge, this is it.
Anonymous
Post 08/23/2023 00:54     Subject: DD with PhD suddenly interested in becoming a patent attorney
Anonymous wrote:She doesn’t need to go to law school to basically do what patent attorneys do.

Have her take the patent bar and become a patent agent.


Can't do litigation or IP transactions where the big money is without being a lawyer. Patent bar is a huge plus so definitely take that.