Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I still don't see why having an August 1st cutoff date is a non starter? Wouldn't that solve this entire debate?

No it would just change the groups of kids advantaged and disadvantaged.

Well, it would change it though. It would make it so all the kids are in the actual age bracket throughout the swim season. So no 13 year olds swimming in 11-12 races. Yes, some kids would still have an advantage, but it would make it so all kids were in the right ages?

People are just complaining that the swim leagues didn't take their kid's birthday into account when choosing the cutoff.

--parent of a late May birthday kid

Tell your kid they were faster than everyone younger. Buy them an ice cream and a ribbon. Problem solved.

Reminds me of when my high school teacher said I got the highest score on a take-test, out of everyone whom didn't cheat.

Anonymous wrote:I still don't see why having an August 1st cutoff date is a non starter? Wouldn't that solve this entire debate?

No it would just change the groups of kids advantaged and disadvantaged.

I still don't see why having an August 1st cutoff date is a non starter? Wouldn't that solve this entire debate?

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Anonymous wrote:They were the correct age on June 1st. Too bad for other kids. Summer birthdays win the day in summer swim!

Agree - every birth date has its pros and cons. It is what it is.

I think it annoys people because kids are named 11-12 year champion or whatever, but they are technically 13. Something about 13 year olds getting an award that has “12” written on it really rubs people the wrong way.

If you kept the June 1 cutoff and called the groups something other than 8u, 10u etc, it would help. Like Squirts, Junior I, Junior II, Senior I and Senior II, for example. Those names are kind of dumb, but you get the idea. Then you could have a Junior I champ and everyone would know that the kid was born between x and y dates and is possibly 11, but they wouldn’t get so irate that they are called a 10u champ.

Pp. Just adding that I guess I’m sympathetic to parents of summer born kids asking “can my kid have one small thing”, but I think having a rule that is consistent and convenient for a short summer league trumps all that. I like the age rule for club swim but it would be too hard for beleaguered summer volunteers to keep track of. June 1 makes sense to me.

I agree with you that I think what rubs people the wrong way is calling a 13 year old an 11-12 record holder or whatever. Summer swim is so short that keeping a cutoff is not that big of a deal. The best kids rise to the top regardless of the age cutoff. Although I don’t think aging up on your birthday would have any impact on the volunteers.

Youth hockey used to call their players mites, squirts etc. but a few years ago decided to change the names to 8u, 10u. So technically in the spring there are kids who already turned 9 competing in the 8u division (because age cutoff is Jan 1 but the season goes Sep through March) but I never hear parents complaining about that

I think a difference is in team sports, you usually don’t know details of the opposing players so you don’t have obsessive parents scrutinizing birth dates.

The difference is, in team sports, you don’t have a 13 year old claiming to be the fastest 12 year old in the history of the league.

They aren't. They're claiming to be that fastest 12U swimmer, a category that includes some 13 year olds. How can someone not realize what an incredibly bad sport you have to be to twist a kid's achievement in the way you are doing. It's so ugly.

You would have a point except that the entire swimming community as an international sport does it a different way, as do many summer swim programs.

lol, you just made that up

This absolutely made up. I grew up in another part of the country and have an early June bday. Cutoff there was/is June 1. Of course no one cared in my case because I was tiny and slow.

It’s recreational swim - if the age thing is a problem for you, easy solution is don’t participate. It’s not like D1 schools are coming to community pools to check the record wall to see what kids hold the 8U records before extending an offer.

Let your kid grab a bucket of cotton candy from Concessions and go have fun with their friends.

Here's why this conversation is idiotic.

Under the current rule, a 13yr old can win the 11-12 year category against a group that could include a ton of kids who are nearly 13. So that 13 yr old might beat a kid who turns 13 September 1st, and OP will deem this "unfair."

But under the rules OP would prefer, a kid who is 12 years, 11 months, and 29 days old could win against a punch of kids who just turned 11, and that is good and fair.

Age cut-offs always create these issues! That's life. Get over it and teach your kids to get over it.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They were the correct age on June 1st. Too bad for other kids. Summer birthdays win the day in summer swim!

Agree - every birth date has its pros and cons. It is what it is.

I think it annoys people because kids are named 11-12 year champion or whatever, but they are technically 13. Something about 13 year olds getting an award that has “12” written on it really rubs people the wrong way.

If you kept the June 1 cutoff and called the groups something other than 8u, 10u etc, it would help. Like Squirts, Junior I, Junior II, Senior I and Senior II, for example. Those names are kind of dumb, but you get the idea. Then you could have a Junior I champ and everyone would know that the kid was born between x and y dates and is possibly 11, but they wouldn’t get so irate that they are called a 10u champ.

Pp. Just adding that I guess I’m sympathetic to parents of summer born kids asking “can my kid have one small thing”, but I think having a rule that is consistent and convenient for a short summer league trumps all that. I like the age rule for club swim but it would be too hard for beleaguered summer volunteers to keep track of. June 1 makes sense to me.

I agree with you that I think what rubs people the wrong way is calling a 13 year old an 11-12 record holder or whatever. Summer swim is so short that keeping a cutoff is not that big of a deal. The best kids rise to the top regardless of the age cutoff. Although I don’t think aging up on your birthday would have any impact on the volunteers.

Youth hockey used to call their players mites, squirts etc. but a few years ago decided to change the names to 8u, 10u. So technically in the spring there are kids who already turned 9 competing in the 8u division (because age cutoff is Jan 1 but the season goes Sep through March) but I never hear parents complaining about that

I think a difference is in team sports, you usually don’t know details of the opposing players so you don’t have obsessive parents scrutinizing birth dates.

Generally true unless/until you have a kid who is really, really good. And then the hyper-competitive parents get obsessed with those kids and if the kid is on the bigger side, they will absolutely get veeeeeery interested in that kid's birthdate.

I think people need to accept that there is some level of unfairness in sports grouped by age or grade. Kids mature at different rates. Some kids will be advantaged by these cut offs, some will be disadvantaged. As a parent of a kid with a late August birthday, I've had lots of experience working with my kid to deal with a situation where she is competing against or playing with kids a full year older than she is, and helping her work through the frustration that often accompanies that. She's also small for her age on top of this. It can be really discouraging, but part of doing sports is developing the mental toughness and resiliency to keep working even when it feels like you'll never catch up with the others, or like you'll never be "the best." Those lessons are honestly more valuable in the long run that and first place finish because next year the first place finish won't matter at all to anyone, but the mental toughness will still be very helpful.

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Anonymous wrote:How in the world do you know all of these kids' ages? Please tell me your not google searching them.

There are swimming sites where the club swimmers’ age and month are listed (ie 12 years 11 months). You also can see for example kids competing at 13 and over champs this weekend that are listed as being 12 on their summer team because that was their age on June 1. Parents like to complain about this but the reality is the kids don’t care. And no I’m not a summer birthday parent, my kid has a May birthday.

The top kids who are the correct age do care.

Week to week meets, I don' think my kids care at all. My record-holding kid minds a tiny bit when setting a record at say 12.5 that gets broken the next year by a classmate who has been 13 for almost two months by the time it gets broken at all stars. In our house, we do say "records are meant to be broken" and kids shrug it off for the most part, but we know a 12yo didn't get that record.

This just happened on our team. Record held by a kid who was 12 and 5 months was just broken by a kid who is over 13.

No, that's not how summer swim works - the record holder was a 12u swimmer and the kid that broke the record was also a 12u swimmer.

And the next kid that breaks this record - guess what? They'll be a 12u swimmer too!

See how that works?

Technically, it’s an 11-12 age group record, and true, that’s how summer swim works. No one is breaking the rules, but also no one is stopping me from seeing an asterisk when I look at the record board. I hope the next kid is actually under 13.

I bet you see things all the time that aren’t there. Cuckoo.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two summer birthday kids and I can tell you that summer swim is literally the only world in which that is an advantageous birthdate. It sucks for everything else.

Read Malcolm Gladwell’s book - outliers - for some perspective. It’s not just summer swim.

In short, move on. Summer swim is like this nationwide.

+2 Summer swim is the only time my summer birthday kid has an advantage. School uses Sept 1 and many other sports use Jan 1. If you want to argue that there shouldn't be cutoffs at all, I don't know what to say to you. Cutoff dates are pretty standard in life. I agree with NVSL's disbanding of their aging up rule. MCSL uses a straight cutoff too.
'

+1. Please let my June 12 kid have one thing that is to his advantage.

No.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two summer birthday kids and I can tell you that summer swim is literally the only world in which that is an advantageous birthdate. It sucks for everything else.

Read Malcolm Gladwell’s book - outliers - for some perspective. It’s not just summer swim.

In short, move on. Summer swim is like this nationwide.

As a parent of a summer birthday kid who was not redshirted for school, I agree.

Serious swimmers are not getting college scholarships based on NVSL times where there are no starting blocks and volunteers with stopwatches for timing.

For young kids, I think it’s pretty harsh to expect a 9yr old to switch from swimming 25s to 50s (with flip turns) in the middle of a 6 week season. Unlike club team where they know it’s coming and have been training for the transition.

I know of 0 other sports or activities where my child is advantaged by a July BD where he will graduate from HS at age 17. Beyond sports, every year there are camps his friends go to that he cannot because of the minimum age. There will be a summer when all his friends will be able to get jobs and earn money when he cannot. I had a late May BD in a district with a June 1 cutoff, so I know about being the youngest. I didn’t hold my kid back because he was ready and he runs circles around his grade level peers academically. Summer swim is short and fun. Let the June/July birthday kids have this one thing where they can feel like winners for a few Saturdays a year.

Oh, PLEASE.

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Anonymous wrote:How in the world do you know all of these kids' ages? Please tell me your not google searching them.

There are swimming sites where the club swimmers’ age and month are listed (ie 12 years 11 months). You also can see for example kids competing at 13 and over champs this weekend that are listed as being 12 on their summer team because that was their age on June 1. Parents like to complain about this but the reality is the kids don’t care. And no I’m not a summer birthday parent, my kid has a May birthday.

The top kids who are the correct age do care.

Week to week meets, I don' think my kids care at all. My record-holding kid minds a tiny bit when setting a record at say 12.5 that gets broken the next year by a classmate who has been 13 for almost two months by the time it gets broken at all stars. In our house, we do say "records are meant to be broken" and kids shrug it off for the most part, but we know a 12yo didn't get that record.

This just happened on our team. Record held by a kid who was 12 and 5 months was just broken by a kid who is over 13.

No, that's not how summer swim works - the record holder was a 12u swimmer and the kid that broke the record was also a 12u swimmer.

And the next kid that breaks this record - guess what? They'll be a 12u swimmer too!

See how that works?

Technically, it’s an 11-12 age group record, and true, that’s how summer swim works. No one is breaking the rules, but also no one is stopping me from seeing an asterisk when I look at the record board. I hope the next kid is actually under 13.

This tiresome thread reminds me of that saying, "don't beat a dead horse." Seriously. Go to your team banquet tomorrow and be so thrilled that your child(ren) has the opportunity to swim, make new friends, and build confidence. Celebrate the time drops. Don't fixate on who gets the 'big' trophy or what age they are. Seriously. Lots of good comes from summer swim - if you don't create drama where there doesn't need to be drama. Have a lovely and relaxing August.

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They were the correct age on June 1st. Too bad for other kids. Summer birthdays win the day in summer swim!

Agree - every birth date has its pros and cons. It is what it is.

I think it annoys people because kids are named 11-12 year champion or whatever, but they are technically 13. Something about 13 year olds getting an award that has “12” written on it really rubs people the wrong way.

If you kept the June 1 cutoff and called the groups something other than 8u, 10u etc, it would help. Like Squirts, Junior I, Junior II, Senior I and Senior II, for example. Those names are kind of dumb, but you get the idea. Then you could have a Junior I champ and everyone would know that the kid was born between x and y dates and is possibly 11, but they wouldn’t get so irate that they are called a 10u champ.

Pp. Just adding that I guess I’m sympathetic to parents of summer born kids asking “can my kid have one small thing”, but I think having a rule that is consistent and convenient for a short summer league trumps all that. I like the age rule for club swim but it would be too hard for beleaguered summer volunteers to keep track of. June 1 makes sense to me.

I agree with you that I think what rubs people the wrong way is calling a 13 year old an 11-12 record holder or whatever. Summer swim is so short that keeping a cutoff is not that big of a deal. The best kids rise to the top regardless of the age cutoff. Although I don’t think aging up on your birthday would have any impact on the volunteers.

Youth hockey used to call their players mites, squirts etc. but a few years ago decided to change the names to 8u, 10u. So technically in the spring there are kids who already turned 9 competing in the 8u division (because age cutoff is Jan 1 but the season goes Sep through March) but I never hear parents complaining about that

I think a difference is in team sports, you usually don’t know details of the opposing players so you don’t have obsessive parents scrutinizing birth dates.

The difference is, in team sports, you don’t have a 13 year old claiming to be the fastest 12 year old in the history of the league.

They aren't. They're claiming to be that fastest 12U swimmer, a category that includes some 13 year olds. How can someone not realize what an incredibly bad sport you have to be to twist a kid's achievement in the way you are doing. It's so ugly.

You would have a point except that the entire swimming community as an international sport does it a different way, as do many summer swim programs.

lol, you just made that up

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How in the world do you know all of these kids' ages? Please tell me your not google searching them.

There are swimming sites where the club swimmers’ age and month are listed (ie 12 years 11 months). You also can see for example kids competing at 13 and over champs this weekend that are listed as being 12 on their summer team because that was their age on June 1. Parents like to complain about this but the reality is the kids don’t care. And no I’m not a summer birthday parent, my kid has a May birthday.

The top kids who are the correct age do care.

Week to week meets, I don' think my kids care at all. My record-holding kid minds a tiny bit when setting a record at say 12.5 that gets broken the next year by a classmate who has been 13 for almost two months by the time it gets broken at all stars. In our house, we do say "records are meant to be broken" and kids shrug it off for the most part, but we know a 12yo didn't get that record.

This just happened on our team. Record held by a kid who was 12 and 5 months was just broken by a kid who is over 13.

No, that's not how summer swim works - the record holder was a 12u swimmer and the kid that broke the record was also a 12u swimmer.

And the next kid that breaks this record - guess what? They'll be a 12u swimmer too!

See how that works?