Anonymous
Post 04/30/2023 14:05     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:I worked in the intelligence community starting in 1988 a year out of college. I had my first child when I was 35 in 2000. I was a GS-14 and continued working for two years until I had baby #2. The women who were all in management when I first joined the government were almost all single or married and childless. There were very few women in management who had children, so I had no mentors to look up to who were moms. Every woman I knew at work who had a baby took positions that guaranteed they'd never get promoted but allowed flexibility or they went part time - which was almost impossible as a GS-14, or they resigned. Because it was the intelligence community, you had to be physically at work to work - absolutely zero telecommunity opportunities. Once I had my second child, it no longer became emotionally feasible to continue working and raising two children. So I joined the countless other moms who resigned.



Gina haspell never had children did she?
Anonymous
Post 04/30/2023 13:03     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The "dress code" was dresses, stockings and heels.


I remember this all too well.


PP and my office allowed “casual Fridays” in 1999 but this meant a mismatched! suit or dress pants, a jacket and blouse. Dress pants meant no panty hose - maybe dress socks!

I remember being excited to wear a cardigan set in lieu of a jacket.
Anonymous
Post 04/30/2023 12:57     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:The "dress code" was dresses, stockings and heels.


I remember this all too well.
Anonymous
Post 04/30/2023 12:57     Subject: What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:20 years ago was only 2003.

I say it has been easy at work for the ladies since at least 1993.

I say close to 100 percent of women still in work force never worked in a bad environment.

Remember in the 1960s men smoked, cursed, drank, had affairs and it was even legal to fire pregnant women.

WFH is nothing of a benefit next to I worked often 45-60 hour weeks with people smoking and cursing all day. I come home saying F bombs and we go out to drinks all the time. I often get home from work drink at 1 am and back at desk in suit by 8 am. I say 95 percent of women were gone by 35.

My department had 400 men and 5 women. And age discrimination existed for men. Out of the 395 men maybe 7-9 were over 35.

I recall my boss telling some guy who asked to leave on time as baby issue said look you screwed your wife last year without a condom now I have to work late no way

That environment started during as early as the late 1970s and was gone by early 90s

Now women are the breadwinners and hold more college degrees and women now complain no men to marry more successful than them.

I worked with a women in 1988 who was 81 and still working. The stories she had how women were treated in the 1920s and 1930s were horrific. She thought 1988 was great for women


Thus is the 3 jobs troll.


Yep sure is. I like to think that if I heard him out in the wild I would know it was him. There is a very specific structure to the writing and it seems like it mimics his talking style.
Anonymous
Post 04/30/2023 12:55     Subject: Child-Free Women Leaders
Anonymous wrote:There were very few women in management who had children, so I had no mentors to look up to who were moms.


This is what I see in my current fed position. Most of the women in leadership positions are single, women of color who are unmarried. Most are losing their hair and overweight. I noticed early on that a promotion or GS 15 wouldn't bring happiness. I am a woman of color and wanted to have more work /life balance. I also wanted to feel beautiful and healthy. Having a child was important to me and it has impacted my career and work relationships.

Many of the work habits are so unhealthy.
Anonymous
Post 04/30/2023 12:08     Subject: What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
In 1999, I took short term disability to recover from childbirth and spend 6 weeks at home with my newborn. I was in commissioned sales for a staffing company.

My female boss called me every week to ask if I was still planning to return to work.

On my sixth week, she set up an in person meeting. I brought my newborn along with a written proposal that I’d like to work part-time, basically 4 days a week.

She was very dismissive of my idea, said that if she allowed me to go part-time that the other “girls” on the team (4 total) would then want the same and she’d not start such a precedent. It was FT or nothing. Also invoked that anything less than FT would
have me ineligible for commission due to the pay structure.

I submitted my resignation that day.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 22:04     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
I think the concern is specific to women who have climbed the ladder, not IC colleagues.

The sense that they felt like they "couldn't have it all" and are not pleased with younger up and coming women trying to juggle and have the whole hog.

I hate feeling this way but it's a dynamic I have encountered several times (but did not feel with childless women who were peer staff - as their decisions about whether to have kids were likely not motivated by work).
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 21:20     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:I have a 23 and 21 year old.

In 1999 I was pregnant and up for a promotion. My boss said “you are clearly the most qualified but since you are pregnant I think your energy and attention will be elsewhere “ and he gave the promotion to a male who was way less qualified.

At the time it was legal to discriminate because of being a new mom. It was illegal to discriminate against me as a pregnant person but as a new mom it was legal.





No it was not legal in 1999.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 16:21     Subject: What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:When I was a junior associate in Biglaw in 2000, a male partner in my practice group praised one of the female partners who had waited until she made partner to get pregnant and only took six weeks of maternity leave (and worked at home during that time). There was also the legendary NY partner who was back in her office running deals three days after giving birth. The clear message was that work was first, health and family second at all times.

I switched to government, and even there it was not super family friendly in the early 2000s and 2010s. I worked for an older female boss without kids, and I traveled extensively and worked long hours when my daughters were young toddlers into elementary school.

It's really only in the past five years that I have felt comfortable turning down work and declining events for kids' activities. My default until probably 2018 was to sneak out if I had to leave early and pretend any absences were not kid-related.


These are the worst for family-friendly policies. The best scenario is involved dad with wife who earns/works more than him.


Yes, agree. Hierarchy in order of most flexible bosses, IMO:
- man with working spouse and kids
- woman with working spouse and kids
- man with spouse but no kids / woman with spouse but no kids
- man with no spouse or kids - sometimes more flexible if they had a working mom
And far the most rigid, unfortunately:
- woman with no spouse or kids


This scares me because I have two young kids and was offered an internal transfer role by a single woman a couple of years older…


I have a dog I would rather spend time with than spend more time at work, as a single woman without children. I assure you. I am not a nun. I have a life outside of work. But I telecommute. I have never wanted the responsibility of direct reports. I am just a worker bee individual contributor.

I would be concerned about whether any woman boss has any resources or any real power at all.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 14:50     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
I worked in the intelligence community starting in 1988 a year out of college. I had my first child when I was 35 in 2000. I was a GS-14 and continued working for two years until I had baby #2. The women who were all in management when I first joined the government were almost all single or married and childless. There were very few women in management who had children, so I had no mentors to look up to who were moms. Every woman I knew at work who had a baby took positions that guaranteed they'd never get promoted but allowed flexibility or they went part time - which was almost impossible as a GS-14, or they resigned. Because it was the intelligence community, you had to be physically at work to work - absolutely zero telecommunity opportunities. Once I had my second child, it no longer became emotionally feasible to continue working and raising two children. So I joined the countless other moms who resigned.

Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 12:36     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I have a 23 and 21 year old.

In 1999 I was pregnant and up for a promotion. My boss said “you are clearly the most qualified but since you are pregnant I think your energy and attention will be elsewhere “ and he gave the promotion to a male who was way less qualified.

At the time it was legal to discriminate because of being a new mom. It was illegal to discriminate against me as a pregnant person but as a new mom it was legal.





I was recently promoted on maternity leave! We are making progress.


I read about this phenomena and saw it a few times in my own company. Some people say that promoting new mothers is a way to retain these workers. If they accept the promotion, they will stay and work harder than before. If they turn down the promotion, it is understood they are out the door.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 12:17     Subject: What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:When I was a junior associate in Biglaw in 2000, a male partner in my practice group praised one of the female partners who had waited until she made partner to get pregnant and only took six weeks of maternity leave (and worked at home during that time). There was also the legendary NY partner who was back in her office running deals three days after giving birth. The clear message was that work was first, health and family second at all times.

I switched to government, and even there it was not super family friendly in the early 2000s and 2010s. I worked for an older female boss without kids, and I traveled extensively and worked long hours when my daughters were young toddlers into elementary school.

It's really only in the past five years that I have felt comfortable turning down work and declining events for kids' activities. My default until probably 2018 was to sneak out if I had to leave early and pretend any absences were not kid-related.


These are the worst for family-friendly policies. The best scenario is involved dad with wife who earns/works more than him.


Yes, agree. Hierarchy in order of most flexible bosses, IMO:
- man with working spouse and kids
- woman with working spouse and kids
- man with spouse but no kids / woman with spouse but no kids
- man with no spouse or kids - sometimes more flexible if they had a working mom
And far the most rigid, unfortunately:
- woman with no spouse or kids


This scares me because I have two young kids and was offered an internal transfer role by a single woman a couple of years older…
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 11:58     Subject: What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
Anonymous wrote:I know multiple women now in their late 60s or older who were actively dissuaded from going into medical school and told to become a nurse. They had long & successful careers in nursing but know that they would’ve been great doctors had they not listened to the naysayers in college administration.

Talk to any woman doctor who went to med school before the mid 70s. The stories are horrible. My grandmother was one of the first female doctors for Kaiser, went to med school in the later 1950s!


And women's health has suffered because of the lack of representation of women in the medical profession as medical doctors and then faculty at medical schools.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 11:40     Subject: Re:What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
The "dress code" was dresses, stockings and heels.
Anonymous
Post 04/29/2023 08:03     Subject: What was it like for exec women & mothers 20+ years ago?
I know multiple women now in their late 60s or older who were actively dissuaded from going into medical school and told to become a nurse. They had long & successful careers in nursing but know that they would’ve been great doctors had they not listened to the naysayers in college administration.

Talk to any woman doctor who went to med school before the mid 70s. The stories are horrible. My grandmother was one of the first female doctors for Kaiser, went to med school in the later 1950s!