Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a few things.

First, as a woman, I am so much more aware than my husband and better at multi-tasking. If I notice something needs to be done, I do it soon because otherwise it takes mental space to remember. Meaning that it is actually less work overall for me to sign up for music lessons instead of discuss it with my husband and wait for him to get to it and remember the deadlien to sign up and then subtly check in with him as we get closer to the deadline because if I ask outright I'm "nagging."

For many things, the easiest thing is just doing it myself. The only way that I've found to split the work is for each of us to 100% own things. I own more than he does though, and it's self fufilling because I am busy so I want things to be done, and I have a lot of things on my plate so I want to manage work myself so I can plan around it. This means I continue to take on more than my fair share.

I think a big piece of it is mental load. I've tried to implement different mechanisms to share it but it's nearly impossible with someone who was socialized without mental load. It's like my brain has a rolling ticker at the bottom of things that need to get done and I can't turn it off.

The mental load is real. My sister’s husband has a diagnosed anxiety disorder, and it comes with its own issues, but part of it is that he wants to be in control of everything, so he deals with all of the crap…arranging childcare, finding music lessons, opening 529’s, getting the leak in the ceiling fixed, planning vacations, figuring out why the dog keeps vomiting, etc.
I had thought this was all BS when other women complained about it because it could be done between other things, but I can’t tell you how much easier parenthood has been for my sister when she doesn’t have to think about all of this stuff. She goes to work, then comes home and plays with her girls. If she has to go out of town, then she tells her husband and he just deals with it.

Wow!

My spouse has anxiety and other things but instead of doing them/in control, he sticks his head in the sand and hides.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I knew my husband would not be equal but I didn’t expect him to be as bad as he is. He really thinks he does a lot too. I love him and he’s important, but I would have less labor if he didn’t live here. I fantasize about a 50/50 custody schedule even though I don’t actually want that at all. I thought he would step up overtime but he’s just lazy and selfish. That’s the truth.

This is so real.

And yes to the part about having more work if I was a single parent. I'm not saying I want to be a single parent -- I love my DH and get emotional value out of our relationship, plus I do think it's better for kids to be in a home with both parents. But my DH is soooooooo lazy. And he would admit it. It's not just about parenting, though yes he's a lazy parent. He won't schedule a doctor's or dentist appointment FOR HIMSELF. He doesn't like ironing, so he just wear wrinkled clothes, and when something absolutely hast to be ironed, he will put it off until the absolute last minute (and sometimes I offer to do it just so it can be done and we can pack a bag or leave the house or whatever).

I don't just do more childcare and housework. I take care of the car, I do maintenance on the house and yard, I plan our vacations, I research and execute all major appliance, furniture, or car purchases, when we move I do all the real estate stuff plus 90% of the packing and executing the move. I make sure we get kid and family photos and make sure they get sent to grandparents. I select gifts for his parents and brother when he puts it off and puts it off. I wrap all gifts. He also offloads most of his wardrobe maintenance to me by simply never buying clothes to replace his clothes once they are falling apart, and then when it's his birthday or Father's Day or Christmas, he just says "I don't know, I need new pants but I'm not sure what." So I wind up buying most of his clothes, figuring out what is in fashion, what goes with what he has, shopping sales, etc. I do our taxes and manage our retirement accounts. AND I do most of the childcare and the housekeeping (I do basically all the cleaning except he occasionally cleans the kitchen, and I'm primary parent for everything from school to drop off/pick up to arranging childcare to bedtimes and meals and hygiene, etc. -- there is no child-related thing that he takes the lead on).

He does none of this for me. He's never booked a vacation for me, he can't even make a reservation for my birthday -- I do it myself because I've learned that otherwise it won't happen. He doesn't buy my clothes or get the oil changed in my car or make sure the yard is taken care of or replace lightbulbs. If I ask him to do these things (and I MUST ask, he will never do them voluntarily), he will put it off indefinitely or complain he doesn't know how or say "you've always done it before, it's easier if you do it this time."

Stuff he does do, he wants like a freaking Purple Heart for it. If I ever complain about any of the above, he'll point out that he goes to the grocery store more, does about half the cooking, and does the laundry about 30% of the time. He also checks our credit card statement each month to make sure there is nothing unauthorized and makes sure that we have the right amount of money in the checking account to pay off the balance. He also occasionally makes me a cup of tea in the morning without me asking for it. I am grateful for all of these things. But it's not half, it's not even close to half. He's just a very lazy person and I pick up all his slack because we're married and have a kid together and him putting crap off or avoiding it just winds ups screwing me over in some other way later.

And people will refer to my DH as "one of the good ones" because they see him hanging out with our kid and being a good dad, he'll mention cleaning or laundry, he seems engaged with our lives. Bu the doesn't actually do this stuff. He's just kind of vaguely taking credit for the enormous amount of stuff I do that makes our lives function, and peopel don't press him on it because why would they, so from the outside our marriage looks egalitarian, but I honestly think my DH does less than my dad did if you add it all up, because my dad was the clear breadwinner (my mom worked but as a nurse and made very little money back then) and he also did all the yard work and anything related to the car. Whereas DH and I both work and make similar amounts and I handle the stuff my dad used to handle plus everything my mom did, too.

I’m male and this sounds like learned helpfulness. Off your list
* car maintenance
* house maintenance
* vacation planning
* major appliance and furniture
* taxes and retirement

Need to be moved to him entirely.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think men DID want equal partners, to be involved with children and egalitarian marriages. But it's just really, really hard. There's so much working against dual working parents.
-school hours are atrocious
-school is basically closed one day a week at least and you need to figure out coverage
-kids are always sick, all winter long
-parenting is extremely hard
-it's very, very difficult to be successful at your job if you left work at 3pm when school ends every day. My boss would have a fit and I'd miss out on lots of meetings.

Dh and I have figured it out and have a nice 40/60 marriage (I'm the 60%), but it's a combo of zero-5 minute commutes, telework, lots of grandparent help, back up nanny and a lot of work.

I always wonder about the school thing. My DH has a flexible career with WFH whenever, but we have three kids and they have literally been sick or out for teacher training/holidays at least once a week averaged out. I have no idea how we would do it if both of us worked full-time, but I assume everyone uses nannies or works from home.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maternity leave sets up the paradigm that moms are the primary parent and household manager.

If dads were expected and encouraged to take paid family leave and actually take care of the baby, it would go a long way to supporting a more egalitarian split at home.

I’ve noticed my Scandinavian colleagues seem to have more balanced family responsibilities, and I think this is a big factor

Funny because I’ve noticed the opposite. In fact, so much that it makes me question their push for equality as simply a way to get women to do absolutely everything. It seems even worse than here. Here my friends at least are supported financially by their husbands. My Scandinavian friends have separate bank accounts and live like roommates. They even have 50% of the mortgage coming out of each bank account. The moms are still in charge of the emotional labor. No thanks!

A lot of this is cultural too.

Germany has great parental leave, free or subsidized childcare and "Elternzeit" where parents can split leave so that Dad takes several months off...but they still have a lot of expectations rooted in stay-at-home motherhood.

France also has great benefits, and a lot of working moms, but there's a lot of the "second shift" dynamic where hte moms do all the house/kid stuff along with working outside the home.

Parental leave and benefits are WONDERFUL and necessary, especially for both parents regardless of gender...but they don't solve underlying cultural expectations taht women do certain caregiving work.

Anonymous wrote:I think men DID want equal partners, to be involved with children and egalitarian marriages. But it's just really, really hard. There's so much working against dual working parents.
-school hours are atrocious
-school is basically closed one day a week at least and you need to figure out coverage
-kids are always sick, all winter long
-parenting is extremely hard
-it's very, very difficult to be successful at your job if you left work at 3pm when school ends every day. My boss would have a fit and I'd miss out on lots of meetings.

Dh and I have figured it out and have a nice 40/60 marriage (I'm the 60%), but it's a combo of zero-5 minute commutes, telework, lots of grandparent help, back up nanny and a lot of work.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I knew my husband would not be equal but I didn’t expect him to be as bad as he is. He really thinks he does a lot too. I love him and he’s important, but I would have less labor if he didn’t live here. I fantasize about a 50/50 custody schedule even though I don’t actually want that at all. I thought he would step up overtime but he’s just lazy and selfish. That’s the truth.

This is so real.

And yes to the part about having more work if I was a single parent. I'm not saying I want to be a single parent -- I love my DH and get emotional value out of our relationship, plus I do think it's better for kids to be in a home with both parents. But my DH is soooooooo lazy. And he would admit it. It's not just about parenting, though yes he's a lazy parent. He won't schedule a doctor's or dentist appointment FOR HIMSELF. He doesn't like ironing, so he just wear wrinkled clothes, and when something absolutely hast to be ironed, he will put it off until the absolute last minute (and sometimes I offer to do it just so it can be done and we can pack a bag or leave the house or whatever).

I don't just do more childcare and housework. I take care of the car, I do maintenance on the house and yard, I plan our vacations, I research and execute all major appliance, furniture, or car purchases, when we move I do all the real estate stuff plus 90% of the packing and executing the move. I make sure we get kid and family photos and make sure they get sent to grandparents. I select gifts for his parents and brother when he puts it off and puts it off. I wrap all gifts. He also offloads most of his wardrobe maintenance to me by simply never buying clothes to replace his clothes once they are falling apart, and then when it's his birthday or Father's Day or Christmas, he just says "I don't know, I need new pants but I'm not sure what." So I wind up buying most of his clothes, figuring out what is in fashion, what goes with what he has, shopping sales, etc. I do our taxes and manage our retirement accounts. AND I do most of the childcare and the housekeeping (I do basically all the cleaning except he occasionally cleans the kitchen, and I'm primary parent for everything from school to drop off/pick up to arranging childcare to bedtimes and meals and hygiene, etc. -- there is no child-related thing that he takes the lead on).

He does none of this for me. He's never booked a vacation for me, he can't even make a reservation for my birthday -- I do it myself because I've learned that otherwise it won't happen. He doesn't buy my clothes or get the oil changed in my car or make sure the yard is taken care of or replace lightbulbs. If I ask him to do these things (and I MUST ask, he will never do them voluntarily), he will put it off indefinitely or complain he doesn't know how or say "you've always done it before, it's easier if you do it this time."

Stuff he does do, he wants like a freaking Purple Heart for it. If I ever complain about any of the above, he'll point out that he goes to the grocery store more, does about half the cooking, and does the laundry about 30% of the time. He also checks our credit card statement each month to make sure there is nothing unauthorized and makes sure that we have the right amount of money in the checking account to pay off the balance. He also occasionally makes me a cup of tea in the morning without me asking for it. I am grateful for all of these things. But it's not half, it's not even close to half. He's just a very lazy person and I pick up all his slack because we're married and have a kid together and him putting crap off or avoiding it just winds ups screwing me over in some other way later.

And people will refer to my DH as "one of the good ones" because they see him hanging out with our kid and being a good dad, he'll mention cleaning or laundry, he seems engaged with our lives. Bu the doesn't actually do this stuff. He's just kind of vaguely taking credit for the enormous amount of stuff I do that makes our lives function, and peopel don't press him on it because why would they, so from the outside our marriage looks egalitarian, but I honestly think my DH does less than my dad did if you add it all up, because my dad was the clear breadwinner (my mom worked but as a nurse and made very little money back then) and he also did all the yard work and anything related to the car. Whereas DH and I both work and make similar amounts and I handle the stuff my dad used to handle plus everything my mom did, too.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maternity leave sets up the paradigm that moms are the primary parent and household manager.

If dads were expected and encouraged to take paid family leave and actually take care of the baby, it would go a long way to supporting a more egalitarian split at home.

I’ve noticed my Scandinavian colleagues seem to have more balanced family responsibilities, and I think this is a big factor

Funny because I’ve noticed the opposite. In fact, so much that it makes me question their push for equality as simply a way to get women to do absolutely everything. It seems even worse than here. Here my friends at least are supported financially by their husbands. My Scandinavian friends have separate bank accounts and live like roommates. They even have 50% of the mortgage coming out of each bank account. The moms are still in charge of the emotional labor. No thanks!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I knew my husband would not be equal but I didn’t expect him to be as bad as he is. He really thinks he does a lot too. I love him and he’s important, but I would have less labor if he didn’t live here. I fantasize about a 50/50 custody schedule even though I don’t actually want that at all. I thought he would step up overtime but he’s just lazy and selfish. That’s the truth.

This is so real.

And yes to the part about having more work if I was a single parent. I'm not saying I want to be a single parent -- I love my DH and get emotional value out of our relationship, plus I do think it's better for kids to be in a home with both parents. But my DH is soooooooo lazy. And he would admit it. It's not just about parenting, though yes he's a lazy parent. He won't schedule a doctor's or dentist appointment FOR HIMSELF. He doesn't like ironing, so he just wear wrinkled clothes, and when something absolutely hast to be ironed, he will put it off until the absolute last minute (and sometimes I offer to do it just so it can be done and we can pack a bag or leave the house or whatever).

I don't just do more childcare and housework. I take care of the car, I do maintenance on the house and yard, I plan our vacations, I research and execute all major appliance, furniture, or car purchases, when we move I do all the real estate stuff plus 90% of the packing and executing the move. I make sure we get kid and family photos and make sure they get sent to grandparents. I select gifts for his parents and brother when he puts it off and puts it off. I wrap all gifts. He also offloads most of his wardrobe maintenance to me by simply never buying clothes to replace his clothes once they are falling apart, and then when it's his birthday or Father's Day or Christmas, he just says "I don't know, I need new pants but I'm not sure what." So I wind up buying most of his clothes, figuring out what is in fashion, what goes with what he has, shopping sales, etc. I do our taxes and manage our retirement accounts. AND I do most of the childcare and the housekeeping (I do basically all the cleaning except he occasionally cleans the kitchen, and I'm primary parent for everything from school to drop off/pick up to arranging childcare to bedtimes and meals and hygiene, etc. -- there is no child-related thing that he takes the lead on).

He does none of this for me. He's never booked a vacation for me, he can't even make a reservation for my birthday -- I do it myself because I've learned that otherwise it won't happen. He doesn't buy my clothes or get the oil changed in my car or make sure the yard is taken care of or replace lightbulbs. If I ask him to do these things (and I MUST ask, he will never do them voluntarily), he will put it off indefinitely or complain he doesn't know how or say "you've always done it before, it's easier if you do it this time."

Stuff he does do, he wants like a freaking Purple Heart for it. If I ever complain about any of the above, he'll point out that he goes to the grocery store more, does about half the cooking, and does the laundry about 30% of the time. He also checks our credit card statement each month to make sure there is nothing unauthorized and makes sure that we have the right amount of money in the checking account to pay off the balance. He also occasionally makes me a cup of tea in the morning without me asking for it. I am grateful for all of these things. But it's not half, it's not even close to half. He's just a very lazy person and I pick up all his slack because we're married and have a kid together and him putting crap off or avoiding it just winds ups screwing me over in some other way later.

And people will refer to my DH as "one of the good ones" because they see him hanging out with our kid and being a good dad, he'll mention cleaning or laundry, he seems engaged with our lives. Bu the doesn't actually do this stuff. He's just kind of vaguely taking credit for the enormous amount of stuff I do that makes our lives function, and peopel don't press him on it because why would they, so from the outside our marriage looks egalitarian, but I honestly think my DH does less than my dad did if you add it all up, because my dad was the clear breadwinner (my mom worked but as a nurse and made very little money back then) and he also did all the yard work and anything related to the car. Whereas DH and I both work and make similar amounts and I handle the stuff my dad used to handle plus everything my mom did, too.

Wait, you are getting so bent out of shape and he does more grocery shopping, half the cooking, and 30% of the laundry? That's a pretty fair split. My car maintenance takes about 1 hour per year. Are you actually changing the oil? Or just taking it somewhere. Are you actually mowing the lawn? Or calling someone to do that? I don't get where this supposedly ridiculously lopsided work load comes in. One guess is that you are very anal about things and/or overscheduled and he just doesn't see the point.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe men do a ton, an equal share let’s say, but are simply less vocal about their contributions and, especially, their complaints. Women, biologically, are programmed to be more emotional. They’re more chatty. They initiate 70% of divorces and 90% if they’re college educated. They’re more flighty, and variant in temperament, and neurotic in general as has been reported by top scientists. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3149680/

So a woman might complain a lot about feeling the emotional burden of parenthood, and a career, but perhaps that’s just her subjective, emotion-based, rather than a fact-based, objective assessment of her situation, we’re outside observers able to quantify her particular case.

your "study" was self-reported.

Sorry you’re not happy with the results. There are a lot of other studies that show women always score higher than men in levels of neuroticism. That definitely correlates to a perception of disparate levels of domestic contributions between married men and women.

its not the results I'm unhappy with, its the research. You talk about fact-based objective assessments but your study is self-reported the opposite of objective and emotion-based.

and lets also separate unprompted and prompted in the domestic contributions meaning what a man/woman does without having to be told to do it or reminded by the other person.

I think it’s more that women’s levels of neuroticism lead them to take on a lot of additional worrying, work, or generally kid related things, that are unnecessary. Men may not see the utility in that type of behavior, to undertake things that aren’t worth their or their kids time, and therefore are usually not prone to even initiating them. Basically women get all spun up, or hoisted by their own petard, in terms of planning, activities, etc. So of course they feel the emotional load. Because of a proclivity for neuroticism, they engage in neurotic busy work. Then they complain about it, as their personality, biologically, is also prone to conversation and emoting.

Anonymous wrote:Maternity leave sets up the paradigm that moms are the primary parent and household manager.

If dads were expected and encouraged to take paid family leave and actually take care of the baby, it would go a long way to supporting a more egalitarian split at home.

I’ve noticed my Scandinavian colleagues seem to have more balanced family responsibilities, and I think this is a big factor