I think the negative impact of therapy is mostly on those who benefited from people not getting help. I strongly suspect the people who finally set boundaries are enjoying their lives more and those who are hurt and furious with the boundaries benefited greatly before that person had the nerve to get therapy.

This reminds me of how any time I told my mom she was being hurtful she would say "you are sooooo sensitive. Why don't you get therapy and learn to deal!" When I finally said "actually I started therapy" she flew into a rage, insisted I give her the person's number so she could tell her side of the story and she obsessively asked me about it and needed to know exactly what I said to the therapist and what the therapist said back. I declined.

I also learned to set far more boundaries with her. It was incredibly helpful in dealing with many stressors. She would tell you it was the biggest mistake I ever made in my life. A friend of hers had been drifting away and after therapy ghosted her completely she is convinced there are all these deranged therapists telling people to stay away from her and targeting her.

Anonymous wrote:I wonder if people are so socially isolated these days that they are using their therapists as friend replacements instead of for therapy.

+1,000 Therapists should be encouraging people to get social and out there.

Anonymous wrote:Yes! Thank you for bringing this up, op. Both siblings have been to therapy and both are estranged from my mom and me. Both have very high standards for others and lower standards for them. They expect forgiveness for things they do but are very harsh against ANY thing you do or say even if your intentions were meant for good. For example, sending a gift to their child because you love them but they tell you that you are " love bombing"

My one sibling cut us off but my other sibling wants a fake relationship where she just tells us how wonderful life is but never wanting to discuss any problems to have a real relationship

It is very frustrating but I have had to let go because there is nothing I can do.

How do we know you and your mom aren't the problem?

Anonymous wrote:I do think there's a level of introspection that's unhealthy. I see it most in younger adults who don't have children yet. I even felt it in myself in my 20s. I felt untethered and had too much time to myself.

Now that I'm a parent it seems unreal to me how some young adults can cut off their parents for such minor things. Like a video I watched recently of a woman blaming her mom (always the mom...) for making her a people pleaser and saying that it was a trauma response. At some point you have to realize that your parents did the best they could do (absent REAL trauma like the ACE indicators) and everyone deserves grace.

Video you watched? Are you making larger judgment on real people based on tiktok? Youtube?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have an old friend who is really critical of others and also really sensitive. Things that seem like no big deal to me are really hurtful to her and she will ruminate on them for a long time. She also will “cut people off” if she doesn’t feel sufficiently appreciated, reciprocated, etc. She is single and in her late 40s now and has been an avid therapy goer since her 20s. She often uses language her therapist gives her to justify pushing people away or cutting them off - or she will describe an event and before I even react, she adds that her therapist agrees with her.

It makes me sad for her because I feel like her therapist has coached and encourage her to push people away under the guise of “protecting herself from toxic people” - which just makes her more dependent on the therapist. I think she is genuinely hurting so I don’t want to say she’s overly sensitive or overreacting - but it seems like she’s spent decades with therapists who tell her what she wants to hear and support her avoiding anything difficult instead of learning how to advocate for herself and work towards positive relationships. When a therapist eventually does get to a point of asking her to do something hard, she leaves and finds another therapist and starts the cycle all over.

This describes an old college friend of mine to a tee. Mostly her angst is that her father favored her elder sister more. Its been years since her dad passed away but she is as critcial to others as she claims her dad was towards her. The sad part is that I mostly becomes a substitute target for her sister because she thinks that life's rewards comes easily to me. Since I have very good relationships with my family (birth and ILs), my dad and brothers dote on me, my mom talks to me every day...it makes her very angry. I feel sorry for her pain but 20+ years of therapy has messed her up more. She had turned into an angry whack job and the therapy has fed into her negativity. There is zero acceptance. She talked about "nursing her pain" and I think she completely misunderstood what it means. Instead of healing, acceptance and letting go, she justifies her pain and the lens through which she views the world. She is 57 and I feel that I do not owe it to her to point out the errors of her ways. I let her be, I tolerate her and I live my own life.

sounds like your friend, and not necessarily therapy, is the problem.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think therapists need to have a little less empathy/validation and a little more practical skills building and critical thought.

Totally agree with this. More than half the time the reason the person is in therapy to begin with is bc they are lacking some basic skills or thought processes needed to thrive. Therapy should be teaching these not validating dysfunction.

Yes, yes, yes! And so many therapists have their own issues, too many are content to encourage victimhood.

This thread seems to be full of strawmen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agree. The problem is that there ARE actually people for whom "therapy speak" is actually functional, valuable information that helps them to overcome trauma and dysfunction.

I am uncomfortable with the attitude on this thread (and also often on DCUM generally) that everyone who talks about trauma or stuff like setting boundaries, being gaslit, etc., is simply being selfish and dramatic and using these terms to mistreat others. This does happen, but also, some people are actually overcoming abuse and severe dysfunction and genuinely need these things to help them through it.

Dismissing everyone because SOME people misuse and abuse these terms is not great because it's unlikely to dissuade the peopel using these terms for selfish reasons, and can really harm people who are actually trying to heal and become more functional.

Narcissists feel rage and frustration when they are cut off. The Internet attracts these angry people as an outlet for their frustration. Normal people naturally respect others and listen to them. The ones screaming about people being selfish for having boundaries, blaming therapists for their estrangements and gaslighting are narcissists.

I wouldn't go that far (I think the term narcissist gets thrown around a lot when I think sometimes what is meant is people who lack emotional intelligence or regulation, or people trapped in dysfunctional relationship patterns), but I do think people often simply do not understand why they are being cut off and lack the introspection to understand their own role in it. And the simple truth is that if you have a functional, healthy relationship with your child, they aren't going to cut you off. Because in that case, you'll have established healthy dynamics for resolving conflict and your child would be well versed in them.

This idea that functional, healthy parent-child relationships are often broken or destroyed by interloping therapists or only therapy speak is something that makes peopel feel better about getting to this point with their children. But why was their child in therapy? Why were they looking online for information about stuff like boundaries and narcissism? And after they came to you with this information they gleaned from therapy or reading, were you receptive and interested in addressing whatever issue they had, or were you resistant, dismissive, and defensive? Because the latter is a form of dysfunction.

People don't want to look at themselves, don't want to examine their own role in this dysfunction. It's so easy for parents to blame children because when they are young, children are easy scapegoats (he won't listen, she's so stubborn, etc.). Well when you do that to an adult, they might just choose to walk away.

+1,00-,000

Anonymous wrote:Think about it, a therapist can be anyone from a physician who spent undergrad, medical school residency and fellowship and post grad training learning their grade, to a SAHM who did an online degree and hung a shingle, to a LCSW who majored in education and did a light grad program & some clinical time. They all charge over $150/hr and many over $200/hr. Zero accountability and no need to get actual results. It’s lunacy.

You have to have a degree and be licensed to do therapy. There is accountability with the licensure board. You probably can do an online degree, but still need licensure. Anyone can say they are a life coach though and there is no accountability with life coaching.

Anonymous wrote:I find the whole line of reasoning about what therapy is and does suspicious.

https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

"But it runs deeper than that. Many members [of online groups for parents estranged from their adult children] truly can't remember what their children said. Anything tinged with negative emotion, anything that makes them feel bad about themselves, shocks them so deeply that they block it out. They really can't remember anything but screaming. This emotional amnesia shapes their entire lives, pushing them to associate only with people who won't criticize them, training their families to shelter them from blows so thoroughly that the softest protest feels like a fist to the face.

But it runs even deeper than that. Posts in estranged parents' forums are vague. Members recount stories with the fewest possible details, the least possible context. They don't recreate entire scenes, repeat entire conversations, give entire text exchanges; they paraphrase hours of conversation away. The only element they describe in detail is their own grief or rage. Nor do the other members press them for more information.

Compare this with the forums for adult children of abusers, where the members not only cut-and-paste email exchanges into their posts, they take photos of handwritten letters and screenshot text conversations. They recreate scenes in detail, and if the details don't add up, the other members question them about it. They get annoyed when a member's paraphrase changes the meaning of a sentence, or when omitted details change the meaning of a meeting. They care about precision, context, and history.

The difference isn't a matter of style, it's a split between two ways of perceiving the world. In one worldview, emotion is king. Details exist to support emotion. If a member gives one set of details to describe how angry she is about a past event, and a few days later gives a contradictory set of details to describe how sad she is about the same event, both versions are legitimate because both emotions are legitimate."

This. I'm not estranged from my parents but I see this with my sister, who is estranged. She has come to them with detailed accounts of things that hurt her or resulted in abuse or neglect as a child (and she is correct, my parents did those things -- just because I'm not estranged doesn't mean I think she's wrong, I'm just handling it differently). My parents will handwave it away, say things like "well I don't remember it that way" or "you're being dramatic." My mom will act shocked by some of the things my sister says, as though she is hearing these stories for the first time. But she was there.

I do think they have blocked out significant portions of our childhood because they themselves were abused as children and the abusive, volatile, neglectful behavior they had towards of was generally an emotional reaction to some trigger regarding their own trauma. And I get it because I'm now a parent, and I know very well the mental confusion that occurs when your child does something for which you would have been hit or screamed at as a child. It happens to me all the time. I have been to therapy and done a lot of work on myself, so instead of hitting my kids or raging at them, I turn to calming techniques. I also use therapy speak! It helps me so much to articulate what is happening and work through it instead of just blowing up.

But my parents never learned that stuff and now what's done is done. They can't go back and undo all the items they hit us and screamed at us and ignored us and blamed us for their own problems or used us as pawns in their arguments with each other. They did it, it messed us up. My sister is mad and she has mostly stopped speaking to them. That's her choice and I respect it. My choice is to maintain a relationship but I stay emotionally detached and don't engage them on a wide range of subject, including the subject of my sister's estrangement, which they often try to get me to take sides in.

So often on these threads I see people who just think these kids cutting off their parents are selfish, ungrateful jerks, and it's obvious to me that those comments are coming from a refusal to contemplate what I means to grow up in an abusive home. Or a refusal to acknowledge that your home was abusive. Either way, usually when an adult cuts off a family member completely, there are reasons.

Anonymous wrote:Yes! Thank you for bringing this up, op. Both siblings have been to therapy and both are estranged from my mom and me. Both have very high standards for others and lower standards for them. They expect forgiveness for things they do but are very harsh against ANY thing you do or say even if your intentions were meant for good. For example, sending a gift to their child because you love them but they tell you that you are " love bombing"

My one sibling cut us off but my other sibling wants a fake relationship where she just tells us how wonderful life is but never wanting to discuss any problems to have a real relationship

It is very frustrating but I have had to let go because there is nothing I can do.

Yes, let it go. If someone, even a family member didn't want a relationship with me I would give the person space and peace. I also might do some real introspection, especially if BOTH my siblings had issues with me. I would not try to win over an estranged child with gifts. You seriously don't think it's creepy to go after the children with gifts. You really think they want stuff from you?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Agree. The problem is that there ARE actually people for whom "therapy speak" is actually functional, valuable information that helps them to overcome trauma and dysfunction.

I am uncomfortable with the attitude on this thread (and also often on DCUM generally) that everyone who talks about trauma or stuff like setting boundaries, being gaslit, etc., is simply being selfish and dramatic and using these terms to mistreat others. This does happen, but also, some people are actually overcoming abuse and severe dysfunction and genuinely need these things to help them through it.

Dismissing everyone because SOME people misuse and abuse these terms is not great because it's unlikely to dissuade the peopel using these terms for selfish reasons, and can really harm people who are actually trying to heal and become more functional.

Narcissists feel rage and frustration when they are cut off. The Internet attracts these angry people as an outlet for their frustration. Normal people naturally respect others and listen to them. The ones screaming about people being selfish for having boundaries, blaming therapists for their estrangements and gaslighting are narcissists.

I wouldn't go that far (I think the term narcissist gets thrown around a lot when I think sometimes what is meant is people who lack emotional intelligence or regulation, or people trapped in dysfunctional relationship patterns), but I do think people often simply do not understand why they are being cut off and lack the introspection to understand their own role in it. And the simple truth is that if you have a functional, healthy relationship with your child, they aren't going to cut you off. Because in that case, you'll have established healthy dynamics for resolving conflict and your child would be well versed in them.

This idea that functional, healthy parent-child relationships are often broken or destroyed by interloping therapists or only therapy speak is something that makes peopel feel better about getting to this point with their children. But why was their child in therapy? Why were they looking online for information about stuff like boundaries and narcissism? And after they came to you with this information they gleaned from therapy or reading, were you receptive and interested in addressing whatever issue they had, or were you resistant, dismissive, and defensive? Because the latter is a form of dysfunction.

People don't want to look at themselves, don't want to examine their own role in this dysfunction. It's so easy for parents to blame children because when they are young, children are easy scapegoats (he won't listen, she's so stubborn, etc.). Well when you do that to an adult, they might just choose to walk away.

I find the whole line of reasoning about what therapy is and does suspicious.

https://www.issendai.com/psychology/estrangement/missing-missing-reasons.html

"But it runs deeper than that. Many members [of online groups for parents estranged from their adult children] truly can't remember what their children said. Anything tinged with negative emotion, anything that makes them feel bad about themselves, shocks them so deeply that they block it out. They really can't remember anything but screaming. This emotional amnesia shapes their entire lives, pushing them to associate only with people who won't criticize them, training their families to shelter them from blows so thoroughly that the softest protest feels like a fist to the face.

But it runs even deeper than that. Posts in estranged parents' forums are vague. Members recount stories with the fewest possible details, the least possible context. They don't recreate entire scenes, repeat entire conversations, give entire text exchanges; they paraphrase hours of conversation away. The only element they describe in detail is their own grief or rage. Nor do the other members press them for more information.

Compare this with the forums for adult children of abusers, where the members not only cut-and-paste email exchanges into their posts, they take photos of handwritten letters and screenshot text conversations. They recreate scenes in detail, and if the details don't add up, the other members question them about it. They get annoyed when a member's paraphrase changes the meaning of a sentence, or when omitted details change the meaning of a meeting. They care about precision, context, and history.

The difference isn't a matter of style, it's a split between two ways of perceiving the world. In one worldview, emotion is king. Details exist to support emotion. If a member gives one set of details to describe how angry she is about a past event, and a few days later gives a contradictory set of details to describe how sad she is about the same event, both versions are legitimate because both emotions are legitimate."

Anonymous wrote:

Agree. The problem is that there ARE actually people for whom "therapy speak" is actually functional, valuable information that helps them to overcome trauma and dysfunction.

I am uncomfortable with the attitude on this thread (and also often on DCUM generally) that everyone who talks about trauma or stuff like setting boundaries, being gaslit, etc., is simply being selfish and dramatic and using these terms to mistreat others. This does happen, but also, some people are actually overcoming abuse and severe dysfunction and genuinely need these things to help them through it.

Dismissing everyone because SOME people misuse and abuse these terms is not great because it's unlikely to dissuade the peopel using these terms for selfish reasons, and can really harm people who are actually trying to heal and become more functional.

Narcissists feel rage and frustration when they are cut off. The Internet attracts these angry people as an outlet for their frustration. Normal people naturally respect others and listen to them. The ones screaming about people being selfish for having boundaries, blaming therapists for their estrangements and gaslighting are narcissists.

Anonymous wrote:Yes! Thank you for bringing this up, op. Both siblings have been to therapy and both are estranged from my mom and me. Both have very high standards for others and lower standards for them. They expect forgiveness for things they do but are very harsh against ANY thing you do or say even if your intentions were meant for good. For example, sending a gift to their child because you love them but they tell you that you are " love bombing"

My one sibling cut us off but my other sibling wants a fake relationship where she just tells us how wonderful life is but never wanting to discuss any problems to have a real relationship

It is very frustrating but I have had to let go because there is nothing I can do.

How about you just accept that they don’t want a relationship with you. Why would you send their kids gifts if they’ve told you no.

If you stopped feeling that you are entitled to a relationship with them, you can then decide whether you want to interact with them in a more appropriate manner. Narcissists can’t interact with someone without causing harm so it’s unlikely that you can.

This conversation reminds me of reading once about what happens when someone with severe narcissistic personality traits joins group therapy, or even occasionally when such a person works 1:1 with a therapist.

What happens it that the narcissist quickly masters the language and reasoning of therapy, and starts twisting it to their own ends. So a narcissist in group therapy will start using the language of therapy agains other members of the group, to manipulate, control, or abuse them. A skilled narcissist can even do this with their own therapist, especially if the therapist is inexperienced.

The one person I've known who I felt used the language of therapy to do this was later diagnosed as bipolar, though I do wonder if actually they have NPD. They were so skilled at using the language of boundaries, gaslighting, trauma processing, etc., to manipulate others, it was disturbing. But yes, always in service of their own ends and often at the expense of the health and wellness of others.