Anonymous
04/04/2023 12:13
Subject: People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You can be born privileged and also work hard. The two are not mutually exclusive
This.
You don't have to deny someone's hard work to have a conversation about differences in advantage.
No one is denying hard work, they are saying it’s not only due to hard work. Lots of working class people work really hard. But some people on this thread have implied that work ethic alone leads to financial success. And that’s just straight up delusional.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 12:09
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Why are you bothered by it?
I can also tell you, from watching my peers grow up, regardless of background those who worked the hardest also got the most out of life. I can also tell, from my professional background, the amount of work people put into their career has a direct relationship with their successes.
Life is not and will never be fair. It's not fair some people seem to suffer more easily from addiction. It's not fair some families have terrible abuse problems. It's not fair to be born to limited circumstances without ingrained knowledge how to make the most out of your decisions. It's not fair to born with limited aptitude. But what does it have to do with other people's successes and accomplishments? Why should I be blamed for it, somehow, or be told to check my privilege? Such a thing is actually distinctly unfair.
The sooner you realize this and stop making judgments and blaming others and making peace with your own situation, the better off you will be. It is not really my problem other people are not successful nor more than it is a problem there are others much more financially successful than I am. Broadly speaking, most people end up with an outcome that does largely correspond with the actions of their decisions and their capabilties. No one is not a senior vice president at a major corporation because of institutional racism or structural dysfunctionalism in whatever. We just have a culture of grievance that has too many people thinking somehow they are oppressed and their failures are can be blamed on others.
You exemplify the cluelessness OP is talking about PP. I don’t think OP is bothered by the unfairness but rather that people don’t own up to the fact that they already started out life way ahead of most people.
Own up to whom? I don't need to explain myself to anyone. You think you're owed an accounting of any money I've received from parents? You're not. Deal with it.
PP here. To yourself. That’s it.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 11:49
Subject: People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You can be born privileged and also work hard. The two are not mutually exclusive
Of course. You can also be born NOT privileged, work even harder, and wind up with a lot less.
That's why it's obnoxious for people to emphasize their hard work as the reason for their success and glide right over an inheritance or a job they got through nepotism or even the gift of graduating from school debt free due to parent contributions or being able to live at home. Hard work alone is not enough for most people.
Yes, it is. Unless your definition of "enough" is narcissistic materialism.
Your experience is too narrow. You are thinking of some middle class person from a stable-but-not-rich family who, through hard work can become UMC. Okay, yes, that can happen.
And there are people from poor and working class backgrounds who can make it up the ladder as well. But they are exceptions. Most people born poor or working class will die poor or working class, and they may were very hard in the interim. But working hard if you don't have a college degree is usually not going to get you a substantially better life.
Plus all the people born into abuse and neglect, who have to overcome the impact of that in order to function at a high enough level to actually achieve the kind of security and comfort we are talking about here. Sure, some do but most do not. I say this as someone who DID make it out of an abusive family with substance abuse issues and mental illness, but has many family members who didn't. It's not so straightforward. One of the things I had to do in order to make it where I am was essentially turn my back on my family -- I moved far away and keep a lot of emotional and physical distance because I know getting drawn back into that world would make it all but impossible for me to give my own children the kind of life I never had.
So no, hard work alone is not enough. You need luck, and help. If you were born into wealth and privilege and can't even recognize your good fortune or want to try and convince people that your position in life is solely the result of your hard work, go ahead, but I know the truth and so does every other person who was born into worse circumstances.
I relate to this. Thank you for sharing.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 11:16
Subject: People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You can be born privileged and also work hard. The two are not mutually exclusive
Of course. You can also be born NOT privileged, work even harder, and wind up with a lot less.
That's why it's obnoxious for people to emphasize their hard work as the reason for their success and glide right over an inheritance or a job they got through nepotism or even the gift of graduating from school debt free due to parent contributions or being able to live at home. Hard work alone is not enough for most people.
Yes, it is. Unless your definition of "enough" is narcissistic materialism.
Your experience is too narrow. You are thinking of some middle class person from a stable-but-not-rich family who, through hard work can become UMC. Okay, yes, that can happen.
And there are people from poor and working class backgrounds who can make it up the ladder as well. But they are exceptions. Most people born poor or working class will die poor or working class, and they may were very hard in the interim. But working hard if you don't have a college degree is usually not going to get you a substantially better life.
Plus all the people born into abuse and neglect, who have to overcome the impact of that in order to function at a high enough level to actually achieve the kind of security and comfort we are talking about here. Sure, some do but most do not. I say this as someone who DID make it out of an abusive family with substance abuse issues and mental illness, but has many family members who didn't. It's not so straightforward. One of the things I had to do in order to make it where I am was essentially turn my back on my family -- I moved far away and keep a lot of emotional and physical distance because I know getting drawn back into that world would make it all but impossible for me to give my own children the kind of life I never had.
So no, hard work alone is not enough. You need luck, and help. If you were born into wealth and privilege and can't even recognize your good fortune or want to try and convince people that your position in life is solely the result of your hard work, go ahead, but I know the truth and so does every other person who was born into worse circumstances.
Our policies only support the poor and UMC/UC. There is no real structural support for LMC/MC. This is one of the reasons why it is so difficult to make jumps in income brackets even with substantial interventions. For example, say that you are working poor. You get the Earned Income Credit, you can get subsidized/free healthcare, reduced/free lunches, etc. You accumulate funds and a savings account. Pull yourself by the bootstraps if it were. Most people are one emergency away from losing it all. They are one more kid away from not being able to pay their rent or a parent having to go part-time because of daycare costs. They are one car accident or disability from losing their house. There is no support for LMC.
You only get support if you get back down to being poor again. There is no support for keeping you from getting poor again. And if you manage to claw yourself back up again, you meet the same issues/constrictions. And while people here love to talk about college cost donut holes, there are real donut holes in LMC lives. And being able to navigate that is 99% luck.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 10:25
Subject: People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You can be born privileged and also work hard. The two are not mutually exclusive
Of course. You can also be born NOT privileged, work even harder, and wind up with a lot less.
That's why it's obnoxious for people to emphasize their hard work as the reason for their success and glide right over an inheritance or a job they got through nepotism or even the gift of graduating from school debt free due to parent contributions or being able to live at home. Hard work alone is not enough for most people.
Yes, it is. Unless your definition of "enough" is narcissistic materialism.
Your experience is too narrow. You are thinking of some middle class person from a stable-but-not-rich family who, through hard work can become UMC. Okay, yes, that can happen.
And there are people from poor and working class backgrounds who can make it up the ladder as well. But they are exceptions. Most people born poor or working class will die poor or working class, and they may were very hard in the interim. But working hard if you don't have a college degree is usually not going to get you a substantially better life.
Plus all the people born into abuse and neglect, who have to overcome the impact of that in order to function at a high enough level to actually achieve the kind of security and comfort we are talking about here. Sure, some do but most do not. I say this as someone who DID make it out of an abusive family with substance abuse issues and mental illness, but has many family members who didn't. It's not so straightforward. One of the things I had to do in order to make it where I am was essentially turn my back on my family -- I moved far away and keep a lot of emotional and physical distance because I know getting drawn back into that world would make it all but impossible for me to give my own children the kind of life I never had.
So no, hard work alone is not enough. You need luck, and help. If you were born into wealth and privilege and can't even recognize your good fortune or want to try and convince people that your position in life is solely the result of your hard work, go ahead, but I know the truth and so does every other person who was born into worse circumstances.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 10:24
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:The other annoying thing I've people say is they're only buying because it is a better financial move than continuing to rent and this way their roommates will pay their mortgage for them. The implication is the rest of us renters are idiots because nobody gifted us a down payment.
Rent in the DMV is the same amount as a mortgage payment elsewhere. If you choose to rent vs move or buy a condo, that’s all on you.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 10:24
Subject: People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:You can be born privileged and also work hard. The two are not mutually exclusive
This.
You don't have to deny someone's hard work to have a conversation about differences in advantage.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 10:22
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
The other annoying thing I've people say is they're only buying because it is a better financial move than continuing to rent and this way their roommates will pay their mortgage for them. The implication is the rest of us renters are idiots because nobody gifted us a down payment.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 10:17
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Why are you bothered by it?
I can also tell you, from watching my peers grow up, regardless of background those who worked the hardest also got the most out of life. I can also tell, from my professional background, the amount of work people put into their career has a direct relationship with their successes.
Life is not and will never be fair. It's not fair some people seem to suffer more easily from addiction. It's not fair some families have terrible abuse problems. It's not fair to be born to limited circumstances without ingrained knowledge how to make the most out of your decisions. It's not fair to born with limited aptitude. But what does it have to do with other people's successes and accomplishments? Why should I be blamed for it, somehow, or be told to check my privilege? Such a thing is actually distinctly unfair.
The sooner you realize this and stop making judgments and blaming others and making peace with your own situation, the better off you will be. It is not really my problem other people are not successful nor more than it is a problem there are others much more financially successful than I am. Broadly speaking, most people end up with an outcome that does largely correspond with the actions of their decisions and their capabilties. No one is not a senior vice president at a major corporation because of institutional racism or structural dysfunctionalism in whatever. We just have a culture of grievance that has too many people thinking somehow they are oppressed and their failures are can be blamed on others.
You exemplify the cluelessness OP is talking about PP. I don’t think OP is bothered by the unfairness but rather that people don’t own up to the fact that they already started out life way ahead of most people.
Own up to whom? I don't need to explain myself to anyone. You think you're owed an accounting of any money I've received from parents? You're not. Deal with it.
This is kinda where I come out. I know that I have had advantages others didn't, but I'm not going to go on a tour of the country proclaiming and itemizing those advantages.
I believe OP's point was to just not act like it was only hard work. So, when you buy that $1M "starter" home 5 years after finishing school, don't talk about how you "saved for so long" or "only ate ramen" to afford it. Also, don't refer to it as a "starter" home. Fine to be excited and share your excitement.
Anonymous
04/04/2023 08:12
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Why are you bothered by it?
I can also tell you, from watching my peers grow up, regardless of background those who worked the hardest also got the most out of life. I can also tell, from my professional background, the amount of work people put into their career has a direct relationship with their successes.
Life is not and will never be fair. It's not fair some people seem to suffer more easily from addiction. It's not fair some families have terrible abuse problems. It's not fair to be born to limited circumstances without ingrained knowledge how to make the most out of your decisions. It's not fair to born with limited aptitude. But what does it have to do with other people's successes and accomplishments? Why should I be blamed for it, somehow, or be told to check my privilege? Such a thing is actually distinctly unfair.
The sooner you realize this and stop making judgments and blaming others and making peace with your own situation, the better off you will be. It is not really my problem other people are not successful nor more than it is a problem there are others much more financially successful than I am. Broadly speaking, most people end up with an outcome that does largely correspond with the actions of their decisions and their capabilties. No one is not a senior vice president at a major corporation because of institutional racism or structural dysfunctionalism in whatever. We just have a culture of grievance that has too many people thinking somehow they are oppressed and their failures are can be blamed on others.
You exemplify the cluelessness OP is talking about PP. I don’t think OP is bothered by the unfairness but rather that people don’t own up to the fact that they already started out life way ahead of most people.
Own up to whom? I don't need to explain myself to anyone. You think you're owed an accounting of any money I've received from parents? You're not. Deal with it.
This is kinda where I come out. I know that I have had advantages others didn't, but I'm not going to go on a tour of the country proclaiming and itemizing those advantages.
Anonymous
04/03/2023 21:17
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Cutting out the rest to say: I also grew up in an UMC family, went to a competitive magnet public school and an Ivy League college, but apparently I paid more attention in my classes than you did, because I'm under absolutely no illusions that it was my "hard work" that got me into college or got me to a prestigious job near the top of my industry by mid-career. Plenty of people work hard. Most of them don't get to go to expensive private colleges or get the opportunities that open up as a result of that. People like you and me should be grateful we were born lucky, and that's the end of it.
Anonymous
04/03/2023 21:06
Subject: People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:You can be born privileged and also work hard. The two are not mutually exclusive
Of course. You can also be born NOT privileged, work even harder, and wind up with a lot less.
That's why it's obnoxious for people to emphasize their hard work as the reason for their success and glide right over an inheritance or a job they got through nepotism or even the gift of graduating from school debt free due to parent contributions or being able to live at home. Hard work alone is not enough for most people.
Yes, it is. Unless your definition of "enough" is narcissistic materialism.
Anonymous
04/03/2023 21:04
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Why are you bothered by it?
I can also tell you, from watching my peers grow up, regardless of background those who worked the hardest also got the most out of life. I can also tell, from my professional background, the amount of work people put into their career has a direct relationship with their successes.
Life is not and will never be fair. It's not fair some people seem to suffer more easily from addiction. It's not fair some families have terrible abuse problems. It's not fair to be born to limited circumstances without ingrained knowledge how to make the most out of your decisions. It's not fair to born with limited aptitude. But what does it have to do with other people's successes and accomplishments? Why should I be blamed for it, somehow, or be told to check my privilege? Such a thing is actually distinctly unfair.
The sooner you realize this and stop making judgments and blaming others and making peace with your own situation, the better off you will be. It is not really my problem other people are not successful nor more than it is a problem there are others much more financially successful than I am. Broadly speaking, most people end up with an outcome that does largely correspond with the actions of their decisions and their capabilties. No one is not a senior vice president at a major corporation because of institutional racism or structural dysfunctionalism in whatever. We just have a culture of grievance that has too many people thinking somehow they are oppressed and their failures are can be blamed on others.
You exemplify the cluelessness OP is talking about PP. I don’t think OP is bothered by the unfairness but rather that people don’t own up to the fact that they already started out life way ahead of most people.
Own up to whom? I don't need to explain myself to anyone. You think you're owed an accounting of any money I've received from parents? You're not. Deal with it.
Anonymous
04/03/2023 20:57
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Why are you bothered by it?
I can also tell you, from watching my peers grow up, regardless of background those who worked the hardest also got the most out of life. I can also tell, from my professional background, the amount of work people put into their career has a direct relationship with their successes.
Life is not and will never be fair. It's not fair some people seem to suffer more easily from addiction. It's not fair some families have terrible abuse problems. It's not fair to be born to limited circumstances without ingrained knowledge how to make the most out of your decisions. It's not fair to born with limited aptitude. But what does it have to do with other people's successes and accomplishments? Why should I be blamed for it, somehow, or be told to check my privilege? Such a thing is actually distinctly unfair.
The sooner you realize this and stop making judgments and blaming others and making peace with your own situation, the better off you will be. It is not really my problem other people are not successful nor more than it is a problem there are others much more financially successful than I am. Broadly speaking, most people end up with an outcome that does largely correspond with the actions of their decisions and their capabilties. No one is not a senior vice president at a major corporation because of institutional racism or structural dysfunctionalism in whatever. We just have a culture of grievance that has too many people thinking somehow they are oppressed and their failures are can be blamed on others.
Just don't lie about where your down payment came from, ok?
Who do you hang out with where people discuss where they got the downpayment for their home?!?!?!
I'm in my 50s and have never had that conversation with any of our friends. That would just be weird and annoying. Who cares?
This is a good point. Most people are not focused in that way about others. I've never felt frustration with someone else's finances or how they present them.
I wonder if op is expecting others to freely disclose their finances or of they're directly asking for the info
To be fair if you're in your 50s you probably were buying homes before social media and the urge to justify and show off your purchases. A lot of this transparency is a gift/ill of social media.
We've bought 3 homes in the last 7 years. Yes, I post photos on Social media because it's our new home and our friends/family like to see that--we moved cross country and it's a way to stay connected to friends in the old location. I watch the nieces/nephews/2nd cousins (or whatever my cousins kids would be called) grow up, start families, buy their first home with partners, watch friends kids post their "new home" photos and yet it's never occurred for me to even wonder---How did they buy such a nice house? Who cares? It's not my business, unless they are asking me for money to help buy the house or to help them pay the bills.
Basically, when I see Social media posts, I don't automatically think "wow, how can they afford that". Because it's not really any of my business. People on my social media are my friends, family and colleagues that are friends. So I'm just happy for someone who buys a new home, boat, car, etc.
I mean if you're buying a new home every 2.5 years I can see how financing has slipped your mind
Moved a distance for the first home. Then added a future retirement home and rented it out for 5 years. Now empty nesters and decided to move into the "retirement home", sell the original and decided to buy a new 2nd home as a "getaway" an hour away. No financing needed for any of them, so yes I don't think about financing. Just like cars, we haven't financed a home in over 15 years.
But even prior to that, my social group just doesn't talk about "where did you get the money to buy your house" Not our business and not really a reason to discuss it. Most of my friends are professional, gold collar workers and I have no doubt they can afford what they spend without parental help. Although interestingly, many of our friends have a "leg up" on us apparently, because they were not saddled with major debt for college (we had $75K between the 2 of us, 30+ years ago).
Anonymous
04/03/2023 20:43
Subject: Re:People who are born on third yet act like they worked "so hard" for something
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I grew up in an UMC family, private education, elite colleges, and yes, I worked extremely hard for what I have now.
Why are you bothered by it?
I can also tell you, from watching my peers grow up, regardless of background those who worked the hardest also got the most out of life. I can also tell, from my professional background, the amount of work people put into their career has a direct relationship with their successes.
Life is not and will never be fair. It's not fair some people seem to suffer more easily from addiction. It's not fair some families have terrible abuse problems. It's not fair to be born to limited circumstances without ingrained knowledge how to make the most out of your decisions. It's not fair to born with limited aptitude. But what does it have to do with other people's successes and accomplishments? Why should I be blamed for it, somehow, or be told to check my privilege? Such a thing is actually distinctly unfair.
The sooner you realize this and stop making judgments and blaming others and making peace with your own situation, the better off you will be. It is not really my problem other people are not successful nor more than it is a problem there are others much more financially successful than I am. Broadly speaking, most people end up with an outcome that does largely correspond with the actions of their decisions and their capabilties. No one is not a senior vice president at a major corporation because of institutional racism or structural dysfunctionalism in whatever. We just have a culture of grievance that has too many people thinking somehow they are oppressed and their failures are can be blamed on others.
Just don't lie about where your down payment came from, ok?
Who do you hang out with where people discuss where they got the downpayment for their home?!?!?!
I'm in my 50s and have never had that conversation with any of our friends. That would just be weird and annoying. Who cares?
This is a good point. Most people are not focused in that way about others. I've never felt frustration with someone else's finances or how they present them.
I wonder if op is expecting others to freely disclose their finances or of they're directly asking for the info
To be fair if you're in your 50s you probably were buying homes before social media and the urge to justify and show off your purchases. A lot of this transparency is a gift/ill of social media.
We've bought 3 homes in the last 7 years. Yes, I post photos on Social media because it's our new home and our friends/family like to see that--we moved cross country and it's a way to stay connected to friends in the old location. I watch the nieces/nephews/2nd cousins (or whatever my cousins kids would be called) grow up, start families, buy their first home with partners, watch friends kids post their "new home" photos and yet it's never occurred for me to even wonder---How did they buy such a nice house? Who cares? It's not my business, unless they are asking me for money to help buy the house or to help them pay the bills.
Basically, when I see Social media posts, I don't automatically think "wow, how can they afford that". Because it's not really any of my business. People on my social media are my friends, family and colleagues that are friends. So I'm just happy for someone who buys a new home, boat, car, etc.
I mean if you're buying a new home every 2.5 years I can see how financing has slipped your mind