Anonymous
12/13/2022 20:05
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.
Let’s rephrase this…
1. It’s pretty shocking to see well endowed universities and the USGovernment judge a family as “not needing” aid regardless of the local cost of living. $170k in Paducah, Kentucky or Bethlehem, PA? Ok. $170k in decent commuting distance to Manhattan or DC or San Jose? C’mon, not the same thing at all!
2. It’s pretty shocking to see universities ignore high medical expenses (tens of thousands of dollars) and deny aid.
3. It’s pretty shocking to see Billion dollar endowments growing tax-free while “donut hole” families are told to stop their retirement contributions, setting up possible old age poverty for the parents while writing off huge expenses for fancy university.
4. It’s pretty shocking to see universities host free open bars for alumni while denying aid to people caught in the donut hole of high medical expense, high cost of living area, and responsibilities to support their elderly parents.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:54
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
C’mon, we’re not talking about twenty years ago! This book’s copyright is from 2003, 2004.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:52
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The reason is there are no damages.
ED is an effort to impose some order by agreement; if someone bad actors want to abuse the system, they can. The main result will likely be a black mark for the high school, though there is likely some (small) chance the new school would withdraw the acceptance.
ED is a textbook example of anti-consumer cartel activity.
Yes! Let’s get Elizabeth Warren on this, pronto!
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:50
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:OP here - I think what’s missing is that these kids aren’t looking to compare FA offers. They want to know what their top choice school is offering and move on if it’s not enough.
For my daughter, she spoke specifically to the FA office at each of the schools she was considering for ED. She asked specifically if the school did not give her enough aid (as determined by her), whether she could withdraw from the ED agreement. All 3 said that was correct, but asked that if that happened, she should come back to them and appeal the FA so that could take a second look at the package before she withdrew.
Anyway, I just see this repeated a lot, but at least among my kid’s friend group, they are definitely all seeking aid.
Actually, this is great advice. Much better than how Wake Forest puts it. Which school?
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:49
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: So yes ED gives a slight edge, and yes donut hole families often cannot take full advantage of that slight edge.
But my full pay kid applied ED to a T10, was deferred and then rejected. Being full pay and top stats still didn't get them an acceptance. For majority of the top 20-40 schools the SAME thing happens whether you are ED or EA/RD---you don't get accepted. The real ED rate for normal kids is only slightly better than EA/RD. Not the glaring 25% vs 5%---it's closer to 10-12% vs 5-6%.
So, double. It doubles your chances.
That WAY more than a "slight edge".
Point is the majority of kids will still be REJECTED from an elite university. Try not to take it personally.
But any kid who has the resume to earn their "lottery ticket" to the elite university admission game is capable of excelling at any school, assuming they have not come to expect they are so special, so smart, so entitled to attending a T20 school. It's your job as a parent to prepare your kids for real life, and that includes helping them pick a balanced list of schools to apply to and a major discussion about finances and what is realistic for your family. The sooner you do this the happier you and your kid might be. Yes, it sucks but people with more money than you will have some advantages in life---not just in college admissions. The key to being happy is to manage what you have with the best choices available. And that means not trying to buy a Lexus if you can only afford a Honda. Doesn't matter that X, Y and Z all can afford a Lexus---you will go further in life if you stick with what you can afford.
And the Lower income kid who had to work a 15+ hour/week job while in HS just to help the family pay the bills and put food on the table likely didn't have the advantages of a MC kid who could attend after school tutoring, participate in sports, clubs, etc. They may be first generation so no help at home from someone who knows what preparing for college is/what classes are needed/etc. So your kid has an edge at just being college ready over them because they've had an easier go at academics and less stress.
I guess I don't see why everyone wants ED eliminated. First, universities can do what they want, especially the private ones. Nobody can control that. So even if the governemtn/states make rules that Public Universities cannot do ED, that would put them at a distinct disadvantage. First, they would loose access to the kids who get into the elite schools and can afford them. 2nd, Full pay students (especially OOS) at state universities help fund the in state students. Even full pay in state students help fund merit/financial aide for those who need it.
At private schools, if they don't have a certain amount of full pay students, the overall costs would go up for everyone else. So instead of $80K it might easily be $90-100K. So be careful of what you wish for.
Please. The $80k institutions pay their senior execs anywhere from $300k to $1M or more even if they are residing in rural areas with very low cost of living expenses PLUS sweet, sweet benefits. These schools need to use their endowment funds or lose their non-profit status.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:44
Subject: Re:“ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:I work for an org that helps low-income students with the admissions process. 5 years ago, we told our families not to do ED/EA because we wanted everyone to see all of their financial packages. Now, a lot of the financial aid is given out in that first round so if you need money it's smart to ED/EA. For our students, the strategy is a little different because for those applications we are going for schools that fully meet financial need or at least have very generous need-based aid.
Right. It is the barbell effect. If you are wealthy or lower SES, ED. Middle and upper middle class be screwed.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:17
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Question from a hs freshman parent. Do schools ever award merit aid with ED or does that not happen?
Yes.
I know of several that do. However, the question is the amount lower for ED vs EA/RD and there is no real way to tell
Anonymous
12/13/2022 19:15
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: So yes ED gives a slight edge, and yes donut hole families often cannot take full advantage of that slight edge.
But my full pay kid applied ED to a T10, was deferred and then rejected. Being full pay and top stats still didn't get them an acceptance. For majority of the top 20-40 schools the SAME thing happens whether you are ED or EA/RD---you don't get accepted. The real ED rate for normal kids is only slightly better than EA/RD. Not the glaring 25% vs 5%---it's closer to 10-12% vs 5-6%.
So, double. It doubles your chances.
That WAY more than a "slight edge".
Point is the majority of kids will still be REJECTED from an elite university. Try not to take it personally.
But any kid who has the resume to earn their "lottery ticket" to the elite university admission game is capable of excelling at any school, assuming they have not come to expect they are so special, so smart, so entitled to attending a T20 school. It's your job as a parent to prepare your kids for real life, and that includes helping them pick a balanced list of schools to apply to and a major discussion about finances and what is realistic for your family. The sooner you do this the happier you and your kid might be. Yes, it sucks but people with more money than you will have some advantages in life---not just in college admissions. The key to being happy is to manage what you have with the best choices available. And that means not trying to buy a Lexus if you can only afford a Honda. Doesn't matter that X, Y and Z all can afford a Lexus---you will go further in life if you stick with what you can afford.
And the Lower income kid who had to work a 15+ hour/week job while in HS just to help the family pay the bills and put food on the table likely didn't have the advantages of a MC kid who could attend after school tutoring, participate in sports, clubs, etc. They may be first generation so no help at home from someone who knows what preparing for college is/what classes are needed/etc. So your kid has an edge at just being college ready over them because they've had an easier go at academics and less stress.
I guess I don't see why everyone wants ED eliminated. First, universities can do what they want, especially the private ones. Nobody can control that. So even if the governemtn/states make rules that Public Universities cannot do ED, that would put them at a distinct disadvantage. First, they would loose access to the kids who get into the elite schools and can afford them. 2nd, Full pay students (especially OOS) at state universities help fund the in state students. Even full pay in state students help fund merit/financial aide for those who need it.
At private schools, if they don't have a certain amount of full pay students, the overall costs would go up for everyone else. So instead of $80K it might easily be $90-100K. So be careful of what you wish for.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 17:31
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Question from a hs freshman parent. Do schools ever award merit aid with ED or does that not happen?
Anonymous
12/13/2022 16:51
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote: So yes ED gives a slight edge, and yes donut hole families often cannot take full advantage of that slight edge.
But my full pay kid applied ED to a T10, was deferred and then rejected. Being full pay and top stats still didn't get them an acceptance. For majority of the top 20-40 schools the SAME thing happens whether you are ED or EA/RD---you don't get accepted. The real ED rate for normal kids is only slightly better than EA/RD. Not the glaring 25% vs 5%---it's closer to 10-12% vs 5-6%.
So, double. It doubles your chances.
That WAY more than a "slight edge".
Anonymous
12/13/2022 16:37
Subject: Re:“ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing you cannot do is compare FA offers.
But yes, you are right that it is not true the ED does not allow you to apply for FA and that admission should come with a guarantee of coverage for need.
This, and for kids who in particular want to compare merit offers, it is a non starter.
And kids who need merit aid and receive none with an ED acceptance are locked into a school they can't pay for, for which reason they cannot apply ED.
Nope.
You NEED financial needed-based aid. There is a calculation for that. You may not like the answer.
You WANT merit aid because you'd prefer to go to a school that is more expensive than you want to pay and think other donors and full-pay families should cover you, but this is choice.
To be clear, not a need.
Thank you for that clarification. That's amazing that you have so much insight into everyone's financial specifics!
Anonymous
12/13/2022 16:36
Subject: Re:“ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing you cannot do is compare FA offers.
But yes, you are right that it is not true the ED does not allow you to apply for FA and that admission should come with a guarantee of coverage for need.
This, and for kids who in particular want to compare merit offers, it is a non starter.
And kids who need merit aid and receive none with an ED acceptance are locked into a school they can't pay for, for which reason they cannot apply ED.
Nope.
You NEED financial needed-based aid. There is a calculation for that. You may not like the answer.
You WANT merit aid because you'd prefer to go to a school that is more expensive than you want to pay and think other donors and full-pay families should cover you, but this is choice.
To be clear, not a need.
THIS^^^
I'm starting to understand the mentality that got so many into this position. The inability to differentiate between wants and needs. Had they been able to do so over the 18 years leading up to college, they might be in a different position.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 16:34
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.
Agreed. If you have been making 250K for a few years, you likely had the means to save. The fact you chose to spend elsewhere is not someone else's issue. We started saving as soon as kids were born, as we knew we would never get any need based aid (2 engineers). We saved rather than taking fancy vacations, we made coffee at home rather than getting Starbucks....saving an extra $100-200/month easily with just the coffee and eating out. Put it to work for 15-18 years along with additional targeted savings and we are well positioned.
We're a donut hole family (about 200k hhi) and saved about 150 per kid until HHI jumped when the kids were in late ES/MS and we upped it to 1,000 per month per kid. That will fund less than 1 year of a SLAC and about 2 years of an instate school depending on the school. Unless we get merit, the kids will take out stafford loans because there is no way we can pay the difference in ECF and savings during the years when they are both in school
Since you did not save enough, then your kid/you will need loans and/or to find a school that offers more merit. However we were a family only making $150K when our first was born and living in SF (expensive!!!), and we managed to start saving ~$1000/month immediately. Any raises we got went at least 50% into the 529. We made sacrifices at that point to save as much as we could. If we hadn't we would be chasing the merit at this point.
Also, your kid can work part=time while in school and over summer and all breaks. They can bring in $7-8K each year. Yes, you might have some loans, but if you search for schools with merit you might not need much.
What wage are you estimating for the $7-8K/year and what kind of jobs?
VA min wage is now $11/hr (MD is $12.50 so kids would earn more) Any grocery store/target/fastfood/waitering/etc job will pay that or higher. Work 10 weeks at 40 hours is $4400 for the summer. Get a 2nd job if needed and/or work 8-10 hours during the school year for the rest. Work winter and spring break.
That's how I did it when I went to college, I rarely had time off. I earned $6-7K 30+ years ago. I worked 50-60 hour weeks during the summer (multiple jobs). I had no choice if I wanted to pay for school. We know how hard it is (my spouse worked just as hard and had more loans than me as they had no parental support at all for college) so we worked hard to save for our kids once they arrived.
So if you and your kid really want to attend a certain college they can contribute $7-8K. In my state a kid could easily earn $10K.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 16:24
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.
Agreed. If you have been making 250K for a few years, you likely had the means to save. The fact you chose to spend elsewhere is not someone else's issue. We started saving as soon as kids were born, as we knew we would never get any need based aid (2 engineers). We saved rather than taking fancy vacations, we made coffee at home rather than getting Starbucks....saving an extra $100-200/month easily with just the coffee and eating out. Put it to work for 15-18 years along with additional targeted savings and we are well positioned.
We're a donut hole family (about 200k hhi) and saved about 150 per kid until HHI jumped when the kids were in late ES/MS and we upped it to 1,000 per month per kid. That will fund less than 1 year of a SLAC and about 2 years of an instate school depending on the school. Unless we get merit, the kids will take out stafford loans because there is no way we can pay the difference in ECF and savings during the years when they are both in school
Since you did not save enough, then your kid/you will need loans and/or to find a school that offers more merit. However we were a family only making $150K when our first was born and living in SF (expensive!!!), and we managed to start saving ~$1000/month immediately. Any raises we got went at least 50% into the 529. We made sacrifices at that point to save as much as we could. If we hadn't we would be chasing the merit at this point.
Also, your kid can work part=time while in school and over summer and all breaks. They can bring in $7-8K each year. Yes, you might have some loans, but if you search for schools with merit you might not need much.
You must be a much better person than people whose kids need merit money. I bow before you.
Life is all about choices. Someone making $200K+ most likely had the opportunity to make different choices that would allow them to afford full pay at Harvard, if that was what they really want/desire for their kids (not everyone, but the majority would). So yes, if you make different choices, then you get to live with the consequences. Which really are not that dire----attending a T80 school is not the end of the world (Except in DCUM world)---your kid's life wont differ that much in all reality if they go to university, work hard, and aspire to be the best they can be.
I don't go around demanding people let me have a BMW for 50% off (give me merit), instead I buy a Honda that I can afford. If you value education and really want your kid to attend a T10 university, then you have to plan and save. If you have not done that, then you plan for your kid to go to a school that's affordable. There are many great ones. If the kid has stats to apply to T20 schools then there will be literally multiple schools that would be a fit for them that will give extensive merit---assuming you can get over the extreme need to attend an "elite" school and search for the right fit (academically, socially and financially). They will get an amazing education---and isn't that the point of college? The obsession of being entitled to a T20 college experience is bizarre. Majority of people you know and work with did not attend a T20 school, yet somehow they are successful member of society, making decent wages.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 16:14
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.
Agreed. If you have been making 250K for a few years, you likely had the means to save. The fact you chose to spend elsewhere is not someone else's issue. We started saving as soon as kids were born, as we knew we would never get any need based aid (2 engineers). We saved rather than taking fancy vacations, we made coffee at home rather than getting Starbucks....saving an extra $100-200/month easily with just the coffee and eating out. Put it to work for 15-18 years along with additional targeted savings and we are well positioned.
Leaving aside the necessity of beating the crap out of this horse, the question in this thread isn't whether you know everything about other people's economic circumstances; it's whether ED confers an advantage on those who - with the exception of need-blind schools - are comfortably full-pay and don't need merit aid or financial aid. The answer is yes.
Of course the answer is Yes. Not much in life is "fair". Those same kids who will be full pay also likely had tutors as needed along the way, a brand new computer every few years, enriching summer activities from a young age that might have cost $$$, a college counselor to help with the application process starting in 9th grade, 1-1 SAT/ACT tutoring, a comfortable roof over their heads and no concern with having clothing, a warm jacket, food to eat, transportation, etc. Those kids likely had many advantages along the way. Such is life. there will always be others who have "more"/perceived to have it better than you.
However, there are still many many MANY great choices of colleges for all kids to attend. Including applying RD to those same universities. The perceived difference between ED and EA/RD is not the straight numbers published that you see, as the ED includes legacy/athletes/highly hooked/etc students who were going to get a spot no matter what. So yes ED gives a slight edge, and yes donut hole families often cannot take full advantage of that slight edge.
But my full pay kid applied ED to a T10, was deferred and then rejected. Being full pay and top stats still didn't get them an acceptance. For majority of the top 20-40 schools the SAME thing happens whether you are ED or EA/RD---you don't get accepted. The real ED rate for normal kids is only slightly better than EA/RD. Not the glaring 25% vs 5%---it's closer to 10-12% vs 5-6%.
However, my kid is thriving at their 2nd choice