Anonymous
11/16/2022 07:18
Subject: Re:UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:There's a lot of boomers online that denigrate undergrad b-school, because those programs either did not exist or were only at mediocre schools when they were in college. Many boomers will argue that undergrad is to pursue a well-rounded liberal arts education and MBA should be reserved for business education.
Well, no one wants to waste 4 years and $280k on a "well-rounded liberal arts education" just to follow up with 2 years and 150k on an MBA. Not when 21-22 year olds are regularly getting hired out of undergrad for $150k+ positions in IB/consulting.
A new MBA and a new undergrad is going to start at the same level in IB and consulting - associate/analyst. The MBA doesn't somehow bump the new hire to a higher position, and the pay will be the same.
The MBA opportunity cost does not add up. Those 2 years are much better spent getting experience and making connections in industry, not to forget earning money rather than spending it.
And if your school has an undergrad b-school, you better be in it instead of taking a liberal arts major like economics. B-schools directly teach students the skills necessary for getting the job, there's additional filtering meaning the peers are more talented, and B-schools hold major-specific career events for recruiting away from the masses. Meanwhile, economics at most schools is a catch-all major for those who couldn't get into the B-school.
The only time that undergrad -> MBA makes sense is for those with engineering or CS degrees, or those with non-target undergrads. Still, IB/consulting firms today love directly hiring engineers/CS, so even that may not be necessary.
You know much better than the old timer claimed to be a business professor.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 21:20
Subject: Re:UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:badmouthing undergrad business major. I say, one can do the same about undergrad any major,
Mind you, even the “third” level undergrad courses pale in comparison to the first level courses in Master’s program.
Business prof back. You are likely to learn something with a major in math, physical science, hard engineering, and probably economics. I'm skeptical about undergrad majors in victim studies, kinesiology, international relations, and psychology. Education and business are professional fields, not scholarly disciplines.
Yes, graduate course are better, at least if you are prepared and focused. The whole point of a liberal undergrad education is to be unfocused so that you get exposed to opportunities.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 20:53
Subject: Re:UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
There's a lot of boomers online that denigrate undergrad b-school, because those programs either did not exist or were only at mediocre schools when they were in college. Many boomers will argue that undergrad is to pursue a well-rounded liberal arts education and MBA should be reserved for business education.
Well, no one wants to waste 4 years and $280k on a "well-rounded liberal arts education" just to follow up with 2 years and 150k on an MBA. Not when 21-22 year olds are regularly getting hired out of undergrad for $150k+ positions in IB/consulting.
A new MBA and a new undergrad is going to start at the same level in IB and consulting - associate/analyst. The MBA doesn't somehow bump the new hire to a higher position, and the pay will be the same.
The MBA opportunity cost does not add up. Those 2 years are much better spent getting experience and making connections in industry, not to forget earning money rather than spending it.
And if your school has an undergrad b-school, you better be in it instead of taking a liberal arts major like economics. B-schools directly teach students the skills necessary for getting the job, there's additional filtering meaning the peers are more talented, and B-schools hold major-specific career events for recruiting away from the masses. Meanwhile, economics at most schools is a catch-all major for those who couldn't get into the B-school.
The only time that undergrad -> MBA makes sense is for those with engineering or CS degrees, or those with non-target undergrads. Still, IB/consulting firms today love directly hiring engineers/CS, so even that may not be necessary.
Well, no one wants to waste 4 years and $280k on a "well-rounded liberal arts education" just to follow up with 2 years and 150k on an MBA. Not when 21-22 year olds are regularly getting hired out of undergrad for $150k+ positions in IB/consulting.
A new MBA and a new undergrad is going to start at the same level in IB and consulting - associate/analyst. The MBA doesn't somehow bump the new hire to a higher position, and the pay will be the same.
The MBA opportunity cost does not add up. Those 2 years are much better spent getting experience and making connections in industry, not to forget earning money rather than spending it.
And if your school has an undergrad b-school, you better be in it instead of taking a liberal arts major like economics. B-schools directly teach students the skills necessary for getting the job, there's additional filtering meaning the peers are more talented, and B-schools hold major-specific career events for recruiting away from the masses. Meanwhile, economics at most schools is a catch-all major for those who couldn't get into the B-school.
The only time that undergrad -> MBA makes sense is for those with engineering or CS degrees, or those with non-target undergrads. Still, IB/consulting firms today love directly hiring engineers/CS, so even that may not be necessary.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 20:05
Subject: Re:UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Some people here are badmouthing undergrad business major. I say, one can do the same about undergrad any major, even in a top 15 national universities and top 15 liberal arts schools. Because, even in such programs, the first two years are devoted to general education courses to develop the students to be “well rounded”. The third year is for foundational courses in the student’s chosen major. Once the fourth year is dedicated to “second” and “third” level courses in the major. Mind you, even the “third” level undergrad courses pale in comparison to the first level courses in Master’s program. As if the dilution and scatter shot course requirements for graduation aren’t enough, many universities insist on a minor to be completed for graduation. This minor requirement needs 5 to 6 courses to be taken. At the end, the student may have an undergraduate degree from a prestigious university but will have no significant depth of knowledge in the chosen major. This is a sad reality of American education. Before anyone badmouths me, let me just say I am talking with some educational credentials- PhD in a hard core engineering and MBA Finance major and varied work experience (non-academic).
Anonymous
11/15/2022 17:22
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.
business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.
Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.
When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.
I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!
If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.
Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.
This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.
For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.
Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.
If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.
That's flat out incorrect.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 16:38
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.
business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.
Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.
When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.
I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!
If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.
Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.
This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.
For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.
Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.
If you're a D1 athlete, you have a much better chance of working in IB or high finance consulting regardless of the school you attended.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 16:32
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.
business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.
Anonymous wrote:
I don't think you are familiar with this area. UPenn, Cornell, Brown offer businsee curriculum, so that's 3 out of 8 ivies.
When schools have undergrad prorams, they are usually more selective and ... it's very hard to change into business program later.
I was a business professor at multiple Ivy League and state universities. Princeton lacks a business school, but has economics adjacent to operations research. I would choose that over any undergrad business program. I know an Emory professor whose kid wanted to go to Duke, even though Emory would have been free. Ouch!
If you only choose Penn or UVA for business, then you might be disappointed if you don't into Wharton or McIntire.
Professors often try to send their kids to selective liberal arts colleges.
This doesn't change the fact that at universities with undergraduate business schools, it's better to be in the b-school than not.
For Wall Street and big 3 consulting, students should look at how big of a target school that the school is over the US News ranking or whether it has undergraduate business or not. Princeton and Duke are much bigger target schools than Emory.
Hopkins and Vanderbilt are ranked higher than Georgetown and Notre Dame, yet the latter two are more coveted for recruitment.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 16:11
Subject: Re:UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Why are people bringing up MBA?
That's something you would consider later after you have real careers.
I'm the business professor who brought it up, because OP was discussing choosing UVA/McIntire over "Top 15" schools without business majors. Instead of basing four years of undergrad on an uncertain business career, you could choose the best undergrad school and then later get an M.B.A. and a "real career".
Historically, M.B.A.'s were rare and more technical, with many engineering and economics majors. But the number of degrees has tripled since the 1980's, and the curriculum has been watered down. Spreadsheets and statistics on personal computers were a big deal in the 1980's. But high school students have laptops today.
As a professor, here is what is galling. Some say M.B.A.'s are "quant", which is usually wrong. Others say one-year masters are not quant, except for schools like Princeton. But if you can get into a "Top 15" college, then you should be able to get into a top quant program later. People are not discussing what you actually learn in the classroom to support a business or finance career. This suggests a myopic thought that McIntire business "connections" will get you an entry job and career for life. I would prefer the connections from Northwestern/Dartmouth/Brown/Cornell/Columbia, even without an business degree. If you can't afford a fifth year for a masters degree, then in-state tuition at UVA merits consideration.
Your kid might not even like business. Or, your kid can choose a different major and get a masters degree later. Choose McIntire because you prefer UVA, not because it guarantees a business career for life.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 07:33
Subject: Re:UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Why are people bringing up MBA?
That's something you would consider later after you have real careers.
Most of the MBA programs are the worst money grab scams.
The real ones require you to have some real work experience.
That's something you would consider later after you have real careers.
Most of the MBA programs are the worst money grab scams.
The real ones require you to have some real work experience.
Anonymous
11/15/2022 04:03
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:
But MBAs are heavy quant
Ha, no, they are not. Unless you and I have very different understandings of what "heavy quant" means.
Anonymous
11/14/2022 23:07
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:One-year "business" masters programs don't replace/supplant the MBA at all - grads of these programs compete with undergrads for jobs, not MBAs. They exist for kids who struck out at OCR during college.
Anonymous wrote:Yup, that's for people who couldn't get a job out of college.
Anonymous wrote:
Let me elaborate on this paper link. It measures the financial returns to graduate education. Some of the results are predictable. Medical school and law school are highest. Anthing in health care or applied math/computers is high. Arts and humanities masters degrees lower the value of lifetime income. Surprisingly, engineering masters and M.B.A.'s have a low return, because accepted students usually have good degrees and jobs. But specialty business masters have a high return.
The modern M.B.A. is too broad to provide enough technical background for many Wall Street positions. Much of the modern diluted two-year curriculum is fluffy soft courses that have nothing to do with finance. A well-prepared student can learn as much finance in one year as business bachelor's or M.B.A.'s.
www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26959/w26959.pdf
Going to school for "business" isn't about learning much at all -- not at the undergrad, graduate, or (certainly not) at the professional/MBA level. And it doesn't matter how much you learn in your 1-year finance program, you're still going to end up competing with undergrads (not MBAs) for jobs.
(I am not referring to super technical, math-heavy programs -- like Princeton's MFin -- above.)
But MBAs are heavy quant
Anonymous
11/14/2022 22:46
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:One-year "business" masters programs don't replace/supplant the MBA at all - grads of these programs compete with undergrads for jobs, not MBAs. They exist for kids who struck out at OCR during college.
Anonymous wrote:Yup, that's for people who couldn't get a job out of college.
Anonymous wrote:
Let me elaborate on this paper link. It measures the financial returns to graduate education. Some of the results are predictable. Medical school and law school are highest. Anthing in health care or applied math/computers is high. Arts and humanities masters degrees lower the value of lifetime income. Surprisingly, engineering masters and M.B.A.'s have a low return, because accepted students usually have good degrees and jobs. But specialty business masters have a high return.
The modern M.B.A. is too broad to provide enough technical background for many Wall Street positions. Much of the modern diluted two-year curriculum is fluffy soft courses that have nothing to do with finance. A well-prepared student can learn as much finance in one year as business bachelor's or M.B.A.'s.
www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26959/w26959.pdf
Going to school for "business" isn't about learning much at all -- not at the undergrad, graduate, or (certainly not) at the professional/MBA level. And it doesn't matter how much you learn in your 1-year finance program, you're still going to end up competing with undergrads (not MBAs) for jobs.
(I am not referring to super technical, math-heavy programs -- like Princeton's MFin -- above.)
Anonymous
11/14/2022 21:42
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:One-year "business" masters programs don't replace/supplant the MBA at all - grads of these programs compete with undergrads for jobs, not MBAs. They exist for kids who struck out at OCR during college.
Anonymous wrote:Yup, that's for people who couldn't get a job out of college.
Anonymous wrote:
Let me elaborate on this paper link. It measures the financial returns to graduate education. Some of the results are predictable. Medical school and law school are highest. Anthing in health care or applied math/computers is high. Arts and humanities masters degrees lower the value of lifetime income. Surprisingly, engineering masters and M.B.A.'s have a low return, because accepted students usually have good degrees and jobs. But specialty business masters have a high return.
The modern M.B.A. is too broad to provide enough technical background for many Wall Street positions. Much of the modern diluted two-year curriculum is fluffy soft courses that have nothing to do with finance. A well-prepared student can learn as much finance in one year as business bachelor's or M.B.A.'s.
www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26959/w26959.pdf
Anonymous
11/14/2022 19:04
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:at universities with undergraduate business schools, economics is the major for those that couldn't get into the undergraduate business schools. So the cohort is inherently weaker.
Yes, business is a selective major at some schools, but not at others.
UVA is weird, because they have the McIntyre school for undergrad business, and Darden for graduate business. Maybe that gives undergrads a cozier environment. "All the Ivies" do not have a superior business curriculum, because most Ivy League schools do not offer undergrad business.
Some people think it is a waste of money to plan for a two-year M.B.A. when you can develop some finance careers with only a bachelors. I think it is a waste to plan an undergrad education around a profession, because a student can easily change his mind. Instead, choose a college that offers many opportunities. If you want to go into business, then you can get a modern one-year specialty masters instead of an expensive M.B.A.
www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w26959/w26959.pdf
One-year "business" masters programs don't replace/supplant the MBA at all - grads of these programs compete with undergrads for jobs, not MBAs. They exist for kids who struck out at OCR during college.
Yup, that's for people who couldn't get a job out of college.
Anonymous
11/14/2022 18:27
Subject: UVA McIntire or top 15 school?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Just do instate UVA and if the business school doesn’t work out major in Econ.
THIS. it's not all that hard to get into McIntire anyway, they routinely take about 60%. Average GPA for 2022 was 3.74. Yes its competitive but if you get good grades and are active in related volunteer organizations and clubs, its not bad at all. Those who don't make it, major in econ or something else and works out just fine.
No. The difference is quite big between UVa econ and McIntire.