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Anonymous wrote:Why do you find it off-putting? Is it because it’s a downer? Because it’s constant? Because you are in the group that is pissing her off? All three?

If it’s because it’s a downer and/or constant, and you have already tried finding common ground and changing the subject, I’d just tell her you love her but you don’t have it in you to keep talking about it and encourage her to find people to vent to, like a friend, online group, or therapist.

If it’s because you’re a man and feeling defensive on behalf of yourself or other men, examine that feeling. Defensiveness usually comes from somewhere. And perhaps try to really, really see where she is coming from. A lot of men agree intellectually with this stuff but don’t actually get it. I find that when men really do get it, they feel less defensiveness and more compassion for their partner. And a little anger on their behalf.

This is dumb. "Examine that feeling"? He feels...annoyed. And why wouldn't he? Nobody would want to hear someone go on and on and on about how much their gender sucks. Get outta here. "I find that when men really do get it"?? What man is agreeing with you saying men suck all of the time? My guess is none. - A woman.

I said examine the defensiveness, not the aspect of repeated complaints. The reason negative feelings surrounding repeated complaints doesn’t really need to be examined because constant complaining brings people down. So the solution is just to kindly let the one complaining that they can’t listen anymore and when the complainer needs to vent they have to find another listening ear.

Defensiveness is trickier. Often when men bristle when women complain about men, it’s because deep down inside it makes them wonder “am I at fault here?” Your ego usually doesn’t want to ask itself that question so instead you react with defensiveness and blame the person triggering the defensiveness. But many men do learn to respond to complaints about sexism with some humility. They might decide that they aren’t doing anything wrong, but they gain some understanding about the anger. Or they might decide they want to do better.

This is hard but practicing empathy and letting go of ego is great for your marriage.

This is cult logic. If you disagree it's because of a failing in yourself. You should examine that.

That’s not at all what I said. I didn’t even mention disagreement. I never said OP had to agree. In fact I don’t agree with OP’s wife.

Couples so often screw up relationships because they get caught up in who is right and who is wrong, thanks to our egos. But that’s rarely what actually matters.

Maybe I misconstrued what you wrote. I read it as you presuming that annoyance or irritation was because of defensiveness rather than just arising out of, say, a legitimate weariness that came from a place other than defensiveness.

In my first post I addressed the legitimate weariness you’re talking about. It’s valid to tell somebody you care about what they’re saying, it’s valid that they are hurt and angry, etc., but can’t handle talking about it all the time. The annoyance might also come from defensiveness, which is a separate issue. Irs always appropriate to practice humility and empathic listening any time you feel defensive.

I wonder if OP thinks that if he validates the intense emotions his wife is feeling, that means he agrees that all men suck. That’s not true. It is just communicating that her *feelings*, not her words, are valid.

Can a person do this by saying, "your feelings are valid but your words are not?" Seems like no.

One problem i see a lot with men is that they think they should always share their opinions, and if somebody gets upset with them for it, they feel oppressed and say things like “oh so we aren’t allowed to have an opinion?”

You’re right, saying that would be a bad idea. But why, at that moment when you are trying to find common ground with your spouse and support her, would you feel compelled to share the fact that you disagree with her? Your opinions don’t need to be flung around at any moment. Just because you exercise judgment in how and when you verbalize disagreement doesn’t mean you’re not allowed to have a different opinion.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Why do you find it off-putting? Is it because it’s a downer? Because it’s constant? Because you are in the group that is pissing her off? All three?

If it’s because it’s a downer and/or constant, and you have already tried finding common ground and changing the subject, I’d just tell her you love her but you don’t have it in you to keep talking about it and encourage her to find people to vent to, like a friend, online group, or therapist.

If it’s because you’re a man and feeling defensive on behalf of yourself or other men, examine that feeling. Defensiveness usually comes from somewhere. And perhaps try to really, really see where she is coming from. A lot of men agree intellectually with this stuff but don’t actually get it. I find that when men really do get it, they feel less defensiveness and more compassion for their partner. And a little anger on their behalf.

This is dumb. "Examine that feeling"? He feels...annoyed. And why wouldn't he? Nobody would want to hear someone go on and on and on about how much their gender sucks. Get outta here. "I find that when men really do get it"?? What man is agreeing with you saying men suck all of the time? My guess is none. - A woman.

I said examine the defensiveness, not the aspect of repeated complaints. The reason negative feelings surrounding repeated complaints doesn’t really need to be examined because constant complaining brings people down. So the solution is just to kindly let the one complaining that they can’t listen anymore and when the complainer needs to vent they have to find another listening ear.

Defensiveness is trickier. Often when men bristle when women complain about men, it’s because deep down inside it makes them wonder “am I at fault here?” Your ego usually doesn’t want to ask itself that question so instead you react with defensiveness and blame the person triggering the defensiveness. But many men do learn to respond to complaints about sexism with some humility. They might decide that they aren’t doing anything wrong, but they gain some understanding about the anger. Or they might decide they want to do better.

This is hard but practicing empathy and letting go of ego is great for your marriage.

This is cult logic. If you disagree it's because of a failing in yourself. You should examine that.

That’s not at all what I said. I didn’t even mention disagreement. I never said OP had to agree. In fact I don’t agree with OP’s wife.

Couples so often screw up relationships because they get caught up in who is right and who is wrong, thanks to our egos. But that’s rarely what actually matters.

Maybe I misconstrued what you wrote. I read it as you presuming that annoyance or irritation was because of defensiveness rather than just arising out of, say, a legitimate weariness that came from a place other than defensiveness.

In my first post I addressed the legitimate weariness you’re talking about. It’s valid to tell somebody you care about what they’re saying, it’s valid that they are hurt and angry, etc., but can’t handle talking about it all the time. The annoyance might also come from defensiveness, which is a separate issue. Irs always appropriate to practice humility and empathic listening any time you feel defensive.

I wonder if OP thinks that if he validates the intense emotions his wife is feeling, that means he agrees that all men suck. That’s not true. It is just communicating that her *feelings*, not her words, are valid.

Can a person do this by saying, "your feelings are valid but your words are not?" Seems like no.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Her social media, and the mainstream media, constantly trashes cis-gender males

Especially white, cis-gender, males.

Your spouse is just repeating what she constantly hears from media.

Now consider why . . .

This is ridiculous. I can't speak for curated social media, but the mainstream media does not in any way, shape or form "constantly trash cis-gender males."

Give me a break.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm generally on the same side as my wife politically, and I agree that women tend to get the short end of the stick in a lot of ways, politically, legally, and culturally. But the constant drumbeat of how men suck is just really off-putting. When I occasionally object, she'll say some variant of "oh, I don't mean you." If I was on and on about the shortcomings of women, she'd be furious. And she'd take it personally.

Anyone else have a spouse who fixates on a single subject in a way that's relentlessly negative? If so, how do you deal with it?

You can’t take women seriously when they talk like this, and, for God’s sake, don’t bother responding. It’s like wrestling with a pig in mud, and you’ll never persuade her to go against the consensus of mainstream female opinion, even in those cases where you can prove beyond doubt her position is incorrect. It’s not about that.

I don't want to persuade her that she's wrong. By and large she isn't wrong. The things she complains about are mostly legitimate. But vaguely blaming it on "men" repeatedly and at length isn't helping her to change anything, isn't making her happier, and is an irritant in our relationship.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men account for a disproportionate amount of society's problems. Personally, I think it's largely a function of testosterone and how that makes people act. But it's also true that men make up a huge portion of the victims of the actions of these other men. So it's not as simple as saying "men." But it's tough to point this out without looking like you're minimizing the problems of women.

Men also account for a disproportionate amount of the solutions to society's problems, including doing a lot of the dirty and dangerous jobs that women don't want to do. But women are not going to give men as a whole any credit for this, because women would much rather complain about how much men suck.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think people often get stuck in complaint loops with this stuff. The PPs who talked about spouses who became obsessed about ranting about Trump are onto something. My DH is like this and even though I agree with him, I really hit a wall with having to hear for the 4000th how mad DH was about something or other Trump had done. Or wanting to watch the Daily Show or Seth Myers just to be able to nod along with the jokes about how bad Trump is. Again, I agree, but I can't steep myself in the misery of it. It seems masochistic.

I think ranting about how men are awful is similar. I think this became a loop a lot of women got stuck in after #MeToo, just something they could turn to when frustrated or a mini-philosophy about the world. So now when they see or experiencing something bad, they turn to "men suck" and it makes them feel better because at least they can explain it.

I agree it's way too simplistic and really doesn't capture what is going on with misogyny and patriarchy. For starters, women reinforce misogyny and patriarchy ALL THE TIME. Even women who describe themselves as feminists do this. I know women who went to the women's march and proudly declare themselves feminists, but who will say things about women they know like, "Well of course her husband doesn't help around the house -- she's really let herself go since they had kids and he doesn't feel appreciated." That's a direct quote, by the way. Many women have become kind of knee jerk feminists who want to cheerlead women in general, and can get very angry on their own behalf when they sense misogyny at play, but otherwise just blindly buy into lots of misogynist notions about women and relationships without much introspection.

OP, maybe you can start pointing out when women reinforce patriarchy to your wife. Start with easy ones, like Kelly Ann Conway or Johnny Depp's lawyer. It might force your wife to start recognizing that patriarchy is actually a lot more complicated than just "men suck" and that there are actually plenty of women in positions of power or authority who benefit from patriarchy more than certain men do, often because of their class status, their whiteness, or their willingness to betray other women. Eventually maybe your wife will evolve her philosophy to something a bit more accurate, like "people suck, especially when doing so helps them oppress others." Or "systems of oppression suck." Not as catchy but a lot more accurate. Good luck!

A few more:

Amy Coney Barrett
Susan Collins
Ginny Thomas

There are so many terrible, terrible women in the world, I just don't understand how you can maintain "men suck" as a viable opinion unless you are willing to concede that both genders suck?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men account for a disproportionate amount of society's problems. Personally, I think it's largely a function of testosterone and how that makes people act. But it's also true that men make up a huge portion of the victims of the actions of these other men. So it's not as simple as saying "men." But it's tough to point this out without looking like you're minimizing the problems of women.

Men also account for a disproportionate amount of the solutions to society's problems, including doing a lot of the dirty and dangerous jobs that women don't want to do. But women are not going to give men as a whole any credit for this, because women would much rather complain about how much men suck.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you find it off-putting? Is it because it’s a downer? Because it’s constant? Because you are in the group that is pissing her off? All three?

If it’s because it’s a downer and/or constant, and you have already tried finding common ground and changing the subject, I’d just tell her you love her but you don’t have it in you to keep talking about it and encourage her to find people to vent to, like a friend, online group, or therapist.

If it’s because you’re a man and feeling defensive on behalf of yourself or other men, examine that feeling. Defensiveness usually comes from somewhere. And perhaps try to really, really see where she is coming from. A lot of men agree intellectually with this stuff but don’t actually get it. I find that when men really do get it, they feel less defensiveness and more compassion for their partner. And a little anger on their behalf.

This is dumb. "Examine that feeling"? He feels...annoyed. And why wouldn't he? Nobody would want to hear someone go on and on and on about how much their gender sucks. Get outta here. "I find that when men really do get it"?? What man is agreeing with you saying men suck all of the time? My guess is none. - A woman.

I said examine the defensiveness, not the aspect of repeated complaints. The reason negative feelings surrounding repeated complaints doesn’t really need to be examined because constant complaining brings people down. So the solution is just to kindly let the one complaining that they can’t listen anymore and when the complainer needs to vent they have to find another listening ear.

Defensiveness is trickier. Often when men bristle when women complain about men, it’s because deep down inside it makes them wonder “am I at fault here?” Your ego usually doesn’t want to ask itself that question so instead you react with defensiveness and blame the person triggering the defensiveness. But many men do learn to respond to complaints about sexism with some humility. They might decide that they aren’t doing anything wrong, but they gain some understanding about the anger. Or they might decide they want to do better.

This is hard but practicing empathy and letting go of ego is great for your marriage.

This is cult logic. If you disagree it's because of a failing in yourself. You should examine that.

That’s not at all what I said. I didn’t even mention disagreement. I never said OP had to agree. In fact I don’t agree with OP’s wife.

Couples so often screw up relationships because they get caught up in who is right and who is wrong, thanks to our egos. But that’s rarely what actually matters.

Maybe I misconstrued what you wrote. I read it as you presuming that annoyance or irritation was because of defensiveness rather than just arising out of, say, a legitimate weariness that came from a place other than defensiveness.

In my first post I addressed the legitimate weariness you’re talking about. It’s valid to tell somebody you care about what they’re saying, it’s valid that they are hurt and angry, etc., but can’t handle talking about it all the time. The annoyance might also come from defensiveness, which is a separate issue. Irs always appropriate to practice humility and empathic listening any time you feel defensive.

I wonder if OP thinks that if he validates the intense emotions his wife is feeling, that means he agrees that all men suck. That’s not true. It is just communicating that her *feelings*, not her words, are valid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Men account for a disproportionate amount of society's problems. Personally, I think it's largely a function of testosterone and how that makes people act. But it's also true that men make up a huge portion of the victims of the actions of these other men. So it's not as simple as saying "men." But it's tough to point this out without looking like you're minimizing the problems of women.

Men also account for a disproportionate amount of the solutions to society's problems, including doing a lot of the dirty and dangerous jobs that women don't want to do. But women are not going to give men as a whole any credit for this, because women would much rather complain about how much men suck.

Anonymous wrote:
Men account for a disproportionate amount of society's problems. Personally, I think it's largely a function of testosterone and how that makes people act. But it's also true that men make up a huge portion of the victims of the actions of these other men. So it's not as simple as saying "men." But it's tough to point this out without looking like you're minimizing the problems of women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do you find it off-putting? Is it because it’s a downer? Because it’s constant? Because you are in the group that is pissing her off? All three?

If it’s because it’s a downer and/or constant, and you have already tried finding common ground and changing the subject, I’d just tell her you love her but you don’t have it in you to keep talking about it and encourage her to find people to vent to, like a friend, online group, or therapist.

If it’s because you’re a man and feeling defensive on behalf of yourself or other men, examine that feeling. Defensiveness usually comes from somewhere. And perhaps try to really, really see where she is coming from. A lot of men agree intellectually with this stuff but don’t actually get it. I find that when men really do get it, they feel less defensiveness and more compassion for their partner. And a little anger on their behalf.

This is dumb. "Examine that feeling"? He feels...annoyed. And why wouldn't he? Nobody would want to hear someone go on and on and on about how much their gender sucks. Get outta here. "I find that when men really do get it"?? What man is agreeing with you saying men suck all of the time? My guess is none. - A woman.

I said examine the defensiveness, not the aspect of repeated complaints. The reason negative feelings surrounding repeated complaints doesn’t really need to be examined because constant complaining brings people down. So the solution is just to kindly let the one complaining that they can’t listen anymore and when the complainer needs to vent they have to find another listening ear.

Defensiveness is trickier. Often when men bristle when women complain about men, it’s because deep down inside it makes them wonder “am I at fault here?” Your ego usually doesn’t want to ask itself that question so instead you react with defensiveness and blame the person triggering the defensiveness. But many men do learn to respond to complaints about sexism with some humility. They might decide that they aren’t doing anything wrong, but they gain some understanding about the anger. Or they might decide they want to do better.

This is hard but practicing empathy and letting go of ego is great for your marriage.

This is cult logic. If you disagree it's because of a failing in yourself. You should examine that.

That’s not at all what I said. I didn’t even mention disagreement. I never said OP had to agree. In fact I don’t agree with OP’s wife.

Couples so often screw up relationships because they get caught up in who is right and who is wrong, thanks to our egos. But that’s rarely what actually matters.

Maybe I misconstrued what you wrote. I read it as you presuming that annoyance or irritation was because of defensiveness rather than just arising out of, say, a legitimate weariness that came from a place other than defensiveness.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm generally on the same side as my wife politically, and I agree that women tend to get the short end of the stick in a lot of ways, politically, legally, and culturally. But the constant drumbeat of how men suck is just really off-putting. When I occasionally object, she'll say some variant of "oh, I don't mean you." If I was on and on about the shortcomings of women, she'd be furious. And she'd take it personally.

Anyone else have a spouse who fixates on a single subject in a way that's relentlessly negative? If so, how do you deal with it?

You can’t take women seriously when they talk like this, and, for God’s sake, don’t bother responding. It’s like wrestling with a pig in mud, and you’ll never persuade her to go against the consensus of mainstream female opinion, even in those cases where you can prove beyond doubt her position is incorrect. It’s not about that.

I don't want to persuade her that she's wrong. By and large she isn't wrong. The things she complains about are mostly legitimate. But vaguely blaming it on "men" repeatedly and at length isn't helping her to change anything, isn't making her happier, and is an irritant in our relationship.

Your response sounds totally reasonable. I do think that men are responsible for a disproportionate amount of society's ills. There's a percentage of people in every populations that are jerks, antisocial, violent, etc., but men just seem to have a higher proportion. But I totally agree with you that it's not helpful to anyone to ruminate on that. I think it's impprtant for you not to argue with her, You can validate her feelings but then say that you need to talk about something else. THe issue here is not misanthropy -- it's really that she sounds like she is having obsessive thoughts. THat's a different problem/solution.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm generally on the same side as my wife politically, and I agree that women tend to get the short end of the stick in a lot of ways, politically, legally, and culturally. But the constant drumbeat of how men suck is just really off-putting. When I occasionally object, she'll say some variant of "oh, I don't mean you." If I was on and on about the shortcomings of women, she'd be furious. And she'd take it personally.

Anyone else have a spouse who fixates on a single subject in a way that's relentlessly negative? If so, how do you deal with it?

You can’t take women seriously when they talk like this, and, for God’s sake, don’t bother responding. It’s like wrestling with a pig in mud, and you’ll never persuade her to go against the consensus of mainstream female opinion, even in those cases where you can prove beyond doubt her position is incorrect. It’s not about that.

I don't want to persuade her that she's wrong. By and large she isn't wrong. The things she complains about are mostly legitimate. But vaguely blaming it on "men" repeatedly and at length isn't helping her to change anything, isn't making her happier, and is an irritant in our relationship.