Anonymous wrote:I am 40 and have gone full circle now. I put in my time in big law and saved aggressively. Now I work in a small firm, theoretically only billing 1500 hours a year (only I'm having a hard time keeping my hours down), and I only go into the office when I want. I'm fairly happy with how my things turned out. Personally, I wouldn't want to give a moment longer to big law, but I'm glad I made a big law salary for a number of years in my twenties/early thirties and built my resume and gained some clients, and invested most of my big law salary along the way. Now I can coast. And I have no envy of my friends who outlasted me in big law.

I think this is a smart approach. Go hard in a high-paying field when you are young and energetic, invest a lot of the gains, and know you are only going to do it for 10 years (Or whatever time frame you choose) so don't inflate your lifestyle. THEN do whatever what you want to do. It's hard to know what you like when you are in your 20s anyway, might as well just go for the $ if you have the option to.
(This is not what I did by any means but it sounds smart to me). I think though it could be a trap for some folks--it's just too hard to give up the money or they have lifestyle inflation and then pretty soon their life is gone.

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Anonymous wrote:I think it simply becomes harder to HIDE that you haven’t saved or accumulated any money.

The first big shift is couples buying their first home. Then it’s upgrading to a nicer home. Later, it’s when you can retire.

I have a number of friends who continue to rent a fancy lifestyle. They may have high earnings but can’t save any or much. Still don’t own a home. We make less but bought a while ago and have since upgraded. It is becoming more and move obvious that certain couples haven’t saved any money especially if they can’t even buy a house or apartment.

I know the type of friends you're talking about - as I have that type in NYC - renting the 5-7k/mo apartment and thus not saving much or at all despite high salaries but when they consider buying, given the down payments they have saved despite high salaries they'd have to buy "regular" apartments - built in the 80s, shared laundry etc. even though they're doormen buildings in a good part of town and then it's ew I'm not buying THAT, have you seen the views from my luxury apartment and my all granite kitchen? I get it but then the cycle continues and equity doesn't get built at all.

Outside of NYC though IDK maybe it's just because I know fewer people here [moved here only five years ago], somehow I don't assume that people who haven't bought can't afford it. I mean maybe they can't but it doesn't seem like renting a fancy life is THAT expensive here. I always assume they aren't buying and just investing a ton maybe to buy someplace else.

Yes. I live here in DC and I rent. I have a high salary but just continue to save and invest until I get married. Currently dating someone now so if we end up marrying we should be fine.

Same. I don't think renting esp in this area where salaries are high is a sign that someone is poor/can't afford a down payment. I think of it as a sign that they are invested to the hilt - as some of my apartment dwelling friends are and/or aren't looking to stay here more than x years so they aren't focused on buying here. But yeah the divide gets bigger if someone is making money and not doing anything with it besides spending on luxury living - so you have to own a home or if not owning then invest a TON more than people who do own etc.

Someone who is still renting because they are investing ALL of their money is an outlier. I have one friend doing this.

The majority of people who are high income and haven’t bought simply don’t have the downpayment. They are spending most of what they are making.

I have a friend in mortgage lending in this area who always says that - looking at people's incomes etc. and the age at which they buy you'd think they have a LOT more in down payments or savings and investments than they typically do; and that's in this area where salaries tend to be high, people tend to be reasonably educated and financially conservative. I won't pretend to understand how this happens though as I don't see that many with earth shatteringly luxury lifestyles, though I guess lots of people in this area travel A LOT and it's always trips that are fancy and long and over time that adds up.

I am 40 and have gone full circle now. I put in my time in big law and saved aggressively. Now I work in a small firm, theoretically only billing 1500 hours a year (only I'm having a hard time keeping my hours down), and I only go into the office when I want. I'm fairly happy with how my things turned out. Personally, I wouldn't want to give a moment longer to big law, but I'm glad I made a big law salary for a number of years in my twenties/early thirties and built my resume and gained some clients, and invested most of my big law salary along the way. Now I can coast. And I have no envy of my friends who outlasted me in big law.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it simply becomes harder to HIDE that you haven’t saved or accumulated any money.

The first big shift is couples buying their first home. Then it’s upgrading to a nicer home. Later, it’s when you can retire.

I have a number of friends who continue to rent a fancy lifestyle. They may have high earnings but can’t save any or much. Still don’t own a home. We make less but bought a while ago and have since upgraded. It is becoming more and move obvious that certain couples haven’t saved any money especially if they can’t even buy a house or apartment.

I know the type of friends you're talking about - as I have that type in NYC - renting the 5-7k/mo apartment and thus not saving much or at all despite high salaries but when they consider buying, given the down payments they have saved despite high salaries they'd have to buy "regular" apartments - built in the 80s, shared laundry etc. even though they're doormen buildings in a good part of town and then it's ew I'm not buying THAT, have you seen the views from my luxury apartment and my all granite kitchen? I get it but then the cycle continues and equity doesn't get built at all.

Outside of NYC though IDK maybe it's just because I know fewer people here [moved here only five years ago], somehow I don't assume that people who haven't bought can't afford it. I mean maybe they can't but it doesn't seem like renting a fancy life is THAT expensive here. I always assume they aren't buying and just investing a ton maybe to buy someplace else.

Yes. I live here in DC and I rent. I have a high salary but just continue to save and invest until I get married. Currently dating someone now so if we end up marrying we should be fine.

Same. I don't think renting esp in this area where salaries are high is a sign that someone is poor/can't afford a down payment. I think of it as a sign that they are invested to the hilt - as some of my apartment dwelling friends are and/or aren't looking to stay here more than x years so they aren't focused on buying here. But yeah the divide gets bigger if someone is making money and not doing anything with it besides spending on luxury living - so you have to own a home or if not owning then invest a TON more than people who do own etc.

Someone who is still renting because they are investing ALL of their money is an outlier. I have one friend doing this.

The majority of people who are high income and haven’t bought simply don’t have the downpayment. They are spending most of what they are making.

DP: I'm another outlier. I rent and have way more in investments/higher net worth than my homeowning friends.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it simply becomes harder to HIDE that you haven’t saved or accumulated any money.

The first big shift is couples buying their first home. Then it’s upgrading to a nicer home. Later, it’s when you can retire.

I have a number of friends who continue to rent a fancy lifestyle. They may have high earnings but can’t save any or much. Still don’t own a home. We make less but bought a while ago and have since upgraded. It is becoming more and move obvious that certain couples haven’t saved any money especially if they can’t even buy a house or apartment.

I know the type of friends you're talking about - as I have that type in NYC - renting the 5-7k/mo apartment and thus not saving much or at all despite high salaries but when they consider buying, given the down payments they have saved despite high salaries they'd have to buy "regular" apartments - built in the 80s, shared laundry etc. even though they're doormen buildings in a good part of town and then it's ew I'm not buying THAT, have you seen the views from my luxury apartment and my all granite kitchen? I get it but then the cycle continues and equity doesn't get built at all.

Outside of NYC though IDK maybe it's just because I know fewer people here [moved here only five years ago], somehow I don't assume that people who haven't bought can't afford it. I mean maybe they can't but it doesn't seem like renting a fancy life is THAT expensive here. I always assume they aren't buying and just investing a ton maybe to buy someplace else.

Yes. I live here in DC and I rent. I have a high salary but just continue to save and invest until I get married. Currently dating someone now so if we end up marrying we should be fine.

Same. I don't think renting esp in this area where salaries are high is a sign that someone is poor/can't afford a down payment. I think of it as a sign that they are invested to the hilt - as some of my apartment dwelling friends are and/or aren't looking to stay here more than x years so they aren't focused on buying here. But yeah the divide gets bigger if someone is making money and not doing anything with it besides spending on luxury living - so you have to own a home or if not owning then invest a TON more than people who do own etc.

Someone who is still renting because they are investing ALL of their money is an outlier. I have one friend doing this.

The majority of people who are high income and haven’t bought simply don’t have the downpayment. They are spending most of what they are making.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it simply becomes harder to HIDE that you haven’t saved or accumulated any money.

The first big shift is couples buying their first home. Then it’s upgrading to a nicer home. Later, it’s when you can retire.

I have a number of friends who continue to rent a fancy lifestyle. They may have high earnings but can’t save any or much. Still don’t own a home. We make less but bought a while ago and have since upgraded. It is becoming more and move obvious that certain couples haven’t saved any money especially if they can’t even buy a house or apartment.

I know the type of friends you're talking about - as I have that type in NYC - renting the 5-7k/mo apartment and thus not saving much or at all despite high salaries but when they consider buying, given the down payments they have saved despite high salaries they'd have to buy "regular" apartments - built in the 80s, shared laundry etc. even though they're doormen buildings in a good part of town and then it's ew I'm not buying THAT, have you seen the views from my luxury apartment and my all granite kitchen? I get it but then the cycle continues and equity doesn't get built at all.

Outside of NYC though IDK maybe it's just because I know fewer people here [moved here only five years ago], somehow I don't assume that people who haven't bought can't afford it. I mean maybe they can't but it doesn't seem like renting a fancy life is THAT expensive here. I always assume they aren't buying and just investing a ton maybe to buy someplace else.

Yes. I live here in DC and I rent. I have a high salary but just continue to save and invest until I get married. Currently dating someone now so if we end up marrying we should be fine.

Same. I don't think renting esp in this area where salaries are high is a sign that someone is poor/can't afford a down payment. I think of it as a sign that they are invested to the hilt - as some of my apartment dwelling friends are and/or aren't looking to stay here more than x years so they aren't focused on buying here. But yeah the divide gets bigger if someone is making money and not doing anything with it besides spending on luxury living - so you have to own a home or if not owning then invest a TON more than people who do own etc.

Years ago, in a reply about push presents, I made this exact same comment about the gap widening in people’s 30s. I surmised that part (but not all!) of the vitrol that push presents get is because it highlights the growing divide on discretionary income as we age. One family is worried about paying for childcare while another is springing for jewelry.

But anyway, 2 thoughts I wanted to add

- I do think some people are naturally longer term thinkers than others on this stuff. I grew up MC and it was VERY clear to me that a passion job earning $65k wasn’t going to fund a lifestyle I wanted in adulthood. I think folks who fall into this trap are very good about projecting 1-3 years into the future, but not 10-15 years.
- None of my friends pursued pure passion careers, but many intentionally “got off the track” in college or post grad on the unstated assumption that they had done enough to generate a good enough salary + a husband would come along to fill the gap. I can think of 2 friends in particular who did this and, while they wouldn’t admit it, likely thought they had beat the system/the need for more education. They frankly had a better lifestyle than those in law/medicine/business school for sure. What they didn’t bank on was those women finishing school, finally getting high salaries, and marrying men they met in those programs. Once we had kids - let me tell you, I *never* thought something like daycare vs nanny or higher end baby gear could create such a intense divide. I can’t help but think there’s a bit of regret driving the disagreements, as people begin to realize how much incomes are diverging behind the scenes.

Anonymous wrote:Your health is your wealth, especially later in life. All the money in the world will not be enough if you are sick mentally or physically. Soooo many people I know have dropped dead early or gotten ill (cancer, strokes) or are mentally sick. Live your life for happiness not for making a mountain of money.

THIS!!!

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Anonymous wrote:Yes!! This is so spot on. I honestly didn't even understand what was happening, my husband and I reached 35 or so and suddenly felt so broke, which we had never felt in my life. We are in solid jobs (combined HHI $320) but our friends who were in law school, or went into tech, have just... Shot ahead of us while we weren't looking. I feel so blindsided and honestly, naive for how much I thought it didn't matter in our 20s.

We're both on the job market now trying to squeeze another $25k apiece. We'll never have Big Law salaries but honestly we've been a little lazy about maximizing our own potential.

How do you feel broke with an HHI of $320?? What are you needing that you can't afford?

Oh we're fine and we do all the responsible things - retirement, 529s for the kids, etc. It's totally a comparison /keeping up with the Joneses thing. It feels like suddenly my friends are buying $2m houses and taking several very luxury vacations a year with their kids, and I am just like... What on earth, I didn't even realize that was in the scope of what was possible. Mostly lawyers or big tech salaries. So HHI $320k is fantastic, but compared to my friend who makes twice that by herself, before you even consider her husband's salary... Yeah, the scale changed quickly.

Yes, it is incredible how much money some people make. You think you're doing OK until you meet a friend with a husband in finance or big tech.

Yes. Of course, getting to an age where grandparents and sometimes one's own parents are passing is also a part of this suddenly visible wealth.

Yes, those GD Boomers are dying off and leaving $$ to their offspring and making the rest of us feel like sh*t. Damn those Boomers!

Your health is your wealth, especially later in life. All the money in the world will not be enough if you are sick mentally or physically. Soooo many people I know have dropped dead early or gotten ill (cancer, strokes) or are mentally sick. Live your life for happiness not for making a mountain of money.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes!! This is so spot on. I honestly didn't even understand what was happening, my husband and I reached 35 or so and suddenly felt so broke, which we had never felt in my life. We are in solid jobs (combined HHI $320) but our friends who were in law school, or went into tech, have just... Shot ahead of us while we weren't looking. I feel so blindsided and honestly, naive for how much I thought it didn't matter in our 20s.

We're both on the job market now trying to squeeze another $25k apiece. We'll never have Big Law salaries but honestly we've been a little lazy about maximizing our own potential.

How do you feel broke with an HHI of $320?? What are you needing that you can't afford?

Oh we're fine and we do all the responsible things - retirement, 529s for the kids, etc. It's totally a comparison /keeping up with the Joneses thing. It feels like suddenly my friends are buying $2m houses and taking several very luxury vacations a year with their kids, and I am just like... What on earth, I didn't even realize that was in the scope of what was possible. Mostly lawyers or big tech salaries. So HHI $320k is fantastic, but compared to my friend who makes twice that by herself, before you even consider her husband's salary... Yeah, the scale changed quickly.

Yes, it is incredible how much money some people make. You think you're doing OK until you meet a friend with a husband in finance or big tech.

Yes. Of course, getting to an age where grandparents and sometimes one's own parents are passing is also a part of this suddenly visible wealth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes!! This is so spot on. I honestly didn't even understand what was happening, my husband and I reached 35 or so and suddenly felt so broke, which we had never felt in my life. We are in solid jobs (combined HHI $320) but our friends who were in law school, or went into tech, have just... Shot ahead of us while we weren't looking. I feel so blindsided and honestly, naive for how much I thought it didn't matter in our 20s.

We're both on the job market now trying to squeeze another $25k apiece. We'll never have Big Law salaries but honestly we've been a little lazy about maximizing our own potential.

How do you feel broke with an HHI of $320?? What are you needing that you can't afford?

Oh we're fine and we do all the responsible things - retirement, 529s for the kids, etc. It's totally a comparison /keeping up with the Joneses thing. It feels like suddenly my friends are buying $2m houses and taking several very luxury vacations a year with their kids, and I am just like... What on earth, I didn't even realize that was in the scope of what was possible. Mostly lawyers or big tech salaries. So HHI $320k is fantastic, but compared to my friend who makes twice that by herself, before you even consider her husband's salary... Yeah, the scale changed quickly.

Yes, it is incredible how much money some people make. You think you're doing OK until you meet a friend with a husband in finance or big tech.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes!! This is so spot on. I honestly didn't even understand what was happening, my husband and I reached 35 or so and suddenly felt so broke, which we had never felt in my life. We are in solid jobs (combined HHI $320) but our friends who were in law school, or went into tech, have just... Shot ahead of us while we weren't looking. I feel so blindsided and honestly, naive for how much I thought it didn't matter in our 20s.

We're both on the job market now trying to squeeze another $25k apiece. We'll never have Big Law salaries but honestly we've been a little lazy about maximizing our own potential.

How do you feel broke with an HHI of $320?? What are you needing that you can't afford?

Oh we're fine and we do all the responsible things - retirement, 529s for the kids, etc. It's totally a comparison /keeping up with the Joneses thing. It feels like suddenly my friends are buying $2m houses and taking several very luxury vacations a year with their kids, and I am just like... What on earth, I didn't even realize that was in the scope of what was possible. Mostly lawyers or big tech salaries. So HHI $320k is fantastic, but compared to my friend who makes twice that by herself, before you even consider her husband's salary... Yeah, the scale changed quickly.

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Anonymous wrote:As long as you're happy and have a fulfilling career, so what?

That's exactly what I thought at 25, but I didn't realize how much of a difference income makes on every area of your life. Where you can live, where your kids go to school, when or if you can ever retire, if you can travel, if you can afford certain types of healthcare, how you live, the security you feel, the security you can offer your family (parents or children), etc.

It never ends.

My best friend from college and I both got advanced degrees the same year, she went to a top MBA program and I went to a top public policy school. Fast forward over 20 years and she has a luxurious vacation home, huge savings, multiple kids in private school, and lots of luxuries. I’m doing fine as a GS-15 but our paths diverged a little and then a lot.

Major life decisions and accomplishments that look subtle compound overtime.

I think the difference between you, me (a Harvard Kennedy School grad), and OP, is we turned our idealism into stable, secure jobs at acceptable incomes. There’s a huge difference between a GS-15 and a nonprofit job that pays $68k.

I’m also assuming OP isn’t married, so she’s exclusively living off her low wages and feeling the pain.

Was it worth it to earn a degree from Harvard? Are you now where you envisioned, career wise?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As long as you're happy and have a fulfilling career, so what?

That's exactly what I thought at 25, but I didn't realize how much of a difference income makes on every area of your life. Where you can live, where your kids go to school, when or if you can ever retire, if you can travel, if you can afford certain types of healthcare, how you live, the security you feel, the security you can offer your family (parents or children), etc.

It never ends.

Nonprofit attorney here. Agree. In my twenties I totally didn’t get that I needed to save for retirement, etc.

I think my friends who government attorney for the financial regulators etc hit the sweet spot. 200k or so income plus another income if they are married but decent hours.

+1 I learned this interning for a financial regulator before law school. I had also worked as a paralegal, and saw that law firm life was horrible. My dream was to not have to worry about money, but to not have to work hard for it either.

Another +1. Business school and public policy grad here.

- Among my business school friends: almost none of them loves their jobs, some got stuck in middle management and have jobs they dislike and are not particularily well paid; others climbed the ladder, are very well paid and enjoy the lifestyle but still dislike their actual job.
- Among my public policy friends : they are more fulfilled, have more purpose, are less bored. The ones that have the hard conditions are starting to feel cheated once they have families. NGO field workers getting worried about the retirement and paying for college etc...But the ones working in Africa for the big NGOs are still happier though then middle management peeps.
- Bottom of happiness: NGO staff based in US, low pay but without the fulfillement of field job and without the perks of expat life (cheaper houses, cooks and nannies, a pool etc...).
- happier mix in my group: not the richest but public policy grads who moved on to big International NGOs or, USAID, foreign service, United Nations/World Bank and get to have purpose + enough $$ to not be worried about money (250KHHI type), or the business school grads who became entrepreneurs after years in consulting or big law, or who moved on to a more socially minded/ethical field (for ex. insurance director who became director of habitat for humanity in Europe)

You need enough monet to feel safe and secure. but money is still not enough to make you happy. You need purpose in life.