Anonymous wrote:I thought the AAP program is for kids who are academically advanced. So why should a kid who as PP puts it shows no inclination "towards anything academic" be admitted to the program?

You love him (as we all do our kids), he just wants to have fun (as most kids do), and has a high WISC score, so he is intelligent. Does this describe what the FCPS considers to be AAP? I'd say get a copy of the GBRS - look at the things they ask about there and be honest. Does he think big thoughts, spend alot of time focusing on one project, give example of time he astonished you with his questions or observations - a few things they are looking for that I can recall off top of my head.

it's GT/AAP program - for either GT or AA kids. or is it for both GT and AA kids?

I would coaution about spendning too much effort on learning about the next grade teachers. They change all the time and frequently over the summer. I would be cautious about getting your heart set on one teacher only to have them leave and then your dissapointment may carry over and impact your relations with the actual teacher.

Our son got a first grade teacher we knew nothing about. All of the other parents raved about him and were excited about the year so we were happy. He went on leave for three months and we ended up with long term subs for the year. If we had made an effort to place him in this class and built unrealistic expectations how would we have felt after that?

How on earth is it "gaming" the system to find a teacher who you think will understand your kid? Especially when you have one that is a non-traditional learner?

Anonymous wrote:

with a 25:1 ratio in 1st and 2nd grade, its a bit risky for us to leave his evaluation to the classroom teacher..hence my concern. My child is not the one to do nice art work or read a book quietly or even show any inclination towards anything academic..he just wants to have fun..and we love that about him.

FWIW, my DD was just like this. But her second grade teacher recognized that she needed more challenge and her GBRS reflected that. I do think it is helpful in first grade to do some research on second grade teachers and try to get one that is a good fit for your kid's learning style. She did really well on the NNAT and had good but not qualifying scores on CoGAT. We had a WISC done (for other reasons) but held the scores in reserve in case we needed to appeal. But she got in on the first round so no appeal needed.

in other words, game the system. Kinda like a lawyer who forum shops.

I thought the AAP program is for kids who are academically advanced. So why should a kid who as PP puts it shows no inclination "towards anything academic" be admitted to the program?

You love him (as we all do our kids), he just wants to have fun (as most kids do), and has a high WISC score, so he is intelligent. Does this describe what the FCPS considers to be AAP? I'd say get a copy of the GBRS - look at the things they ask about there and be honest. Does he think big thoughts, spend alot of time focusing on one project, give example of time he astonished you with his questions or observations - a few things they are looking for that I can recall off top of my head.

with a 25:1 ratio in 1st and 2nd grade, its a bit risky for us to leave his evaluation to the classroom teacher..hence my concern. My child is not the one to do nice art work or read a book quietly or even show any inclination towards anything academic..he just wants to have fun..and we love that about him.

FWIW, my DD was just like this. But her second grade teacher recognized that she needed more challenge and her GBRS reflected that. I do think it is helpful in first grade to do some research on second grade teachers and try to get one that is a good fit for your kid's learning style. She did really well on the NNAT and had good but not qualifying scores on CoGAT. We had a WISC done (for other reasons) but held the scores in reserve in case we needed to appeal. But she got in on the first round so no appeal needed.

Anonymous wrote:01:07; you have no choice but to partially leave the evaluation to the school. However, good WISC scores administered by a state licensed psychologist will be factored in. And the parents have a change to write something. I do not think it is as subjective as you thing. What I can say is everyone that I know personally that put a decent package together was admitted.

The best thing to do is to address your concerns to the AAP resource teacher.

With that said, what I would do 1) get to know the 2nd grade teacher, 2) supply the school with the results on your DC's scores, 3) prepare to get DC retested privately in the second grade, and 4) put the best case for DC in the parent form.

The people that had problems were ones with good but not great NNAT or COGAT (one really high subtest, the others good...but maybe 110-120). The parent does nothing to help build the case, and the the child does not show gifted behavior in school (shy?), so has a low GBRS and mediocre report cards. WISC and parental involvement stops it.

My situation was all the teachers thought DD belonged, but she did not test well (gets nervous and wants to be the first done). She had great GBRS (14)...With the help of the AAP resource teacher and 2nd grade teacher, we put a strong package. She was admitted.

I also think the real bias is in schools that do not have Local Level IV: some deflate GBRS estimates to keep the best kids locally. But that is a non-verified accusation.

via appeal, right?

01:07; you have no choice but to partially leave the evaluation to the school. However, good WISC scores administered by a state licensed psychologist will be factored in. And the parents have a change to write something. I do not think it is as subjective as you thing. What I can say is everyone that I know personally that put a decent package together was admitted.

The best thing to do is to address your concerns to the AAP resource teacher.

With that said, what I would do 1) get to know the 2nd grade teacher, 2) supply the school with the results on your DC's scores, 3) prepare to get DC retested privately in the second grade, and 4) put the best case for DC in the parent form.

The people that had problems were ones with good but not great NNAT or COGAT (one really high subtest, the others good...but maybe 110-120). The parent does nothing to help build the case, and the the child does not show gifted behavior in school (shy?), so has a low GBRS and mediocre report cards. WISC and parental involvement stops it.

My situation was all the teachers though DD belonged, but she did not test well (gets nervous and wants to be the first done). She had great GBRS (14)...With the help of the AAP resource teacher and 2nd grade teacher, we put a strong package. She was admitted.

I also think the real bias is in schools that do not have Local Level IV: some deflate GBRS estimates to keep the best kids locally. But that is a non-verified accusation.

16:06, 16:46, thanks for getting back..

16:46. I am afraid that the treatment he got in kindergarten would be repeated in 2nd grade..

In addition, I am quite convinced that the process is very subjective..and biased. I dont blame the teachers..they will always pick the students most obviously demonstrating 'GT qualities'

We did WISC and other testing this summer and the results were highly contrary to what feedback we were getting from his teacher..

with a 25:1 ratio in 1st and 2nd grade, its a bit risky for us to leave his evaluation to the classroom teacher..hence my concern. My child is not the one to do nice art work or read a book quietly or even show any inclination towards anything academic..he just wants to have fun..and we love that about him.

Anonymous wrote:Is it possible to get into GT program - just on the basis of the COGAT/NNAT tests?

My kid is in Kindergarten and based on our experience so far, I am afraid that he may not get fair evaluation from his teachers.

Can the scores overcome an average or even negative teacher recommendation? I am quite sure my kid should do pretty well on these tests.

thanks..

They don't give the tests until 2nd grade, and the program doesn't start 'til 3d grade, so you have awile. Why do you think the teachers two years from now might not give your kid a fair evaluation?

Anonymous wrote:Is it possible to get into GT program - just on the basis of the COGAT/NNAT tests?

My kid is in Kindergarten and based on our experience so far, I am afraid that he may not get fair evaluation from his teachers.

Can the scores overcome an average or even negative teacher recommendation? I am quite sure my kid should do pretty well on these tests.

thanks..

It really kind of depends on the scores. If they are outstanding, DC may get in on scores alone. You can always appeal and include WISC scores if you have good scores but a not so good GBRS. I think certain schools with no level IV services intentionally lower the GBRS ratings to keep the "good" students.

Is it possible to get into GT program - just on the basis of the COGAT/NNAT tests?

My kid is in Kindergarten and based on our experience so far, I am afraid that he may not get fair evaluation from his teachers.

Can the scores overcome an average or even negative teacher recommendation? I am quite sure my kid should do pretty well on these tests.

thanks..

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently the success rate on appeals is very high. Can anyone that as many as 50% of the kids in the GT centers got in on appeal?

Not even close. In 2004-2005, 2335 children were accepted into the GT Center. 152 of those were accepted after appealing an initial denial of those services. More recent data are not available.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/Fairfax/Board.nsf/39c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/2b1b2b585a5d305e852570fb004f3f9f/$FILE/Gifted%20and%20Talented%20Center%20Program.pdf

If you are asking if appeals are frequently successful, then the answer would be yes. 59% of those who appealed in 2004-05 were eventually declared eligible. Most of those submitted additional test scores.

so the CogAt and NNAT aren't predictive enough? For some apprently it's a good idea to shop around for a test that gives you the result you want.

They are clearly inferior to the WISC or Stanford-Binet, which is the gold standard and much more expensive to administer. FCPS uses the CoGat because it's a group test which is cheaper to administer and somewhat correlated with the WISC, and the NNAT because it's also a cheap group test and the creator of that test used to work at GMU and claims that it's better at identifying 'gifted' disadvantaged kids. There's substantial evidence, however, that the NNAT is very flawed because standard deviation on that test is very wrong for 2nd graders.

It would be ideal if FCPS would just administer the WISC to every kid, but that's clearly untenable because it's too time-consuming and too expensive. Instead, they use the CoGat/NNAT to screen, but even they acknowledge it has major faults, so they provide another avenue for acceptance for those kids that it misses.

The CoGAT and NNAT are not IQ tests. They are tests of general ability that correlate with IQ. Neither should be considered a substitute for a test like the WISC. Rather, school districts use tests like CoGAT and NNAT as a proxy for the WISC, because they cannot afford to give all kids the WISC. There are also some issues with how the CoGAT is given (the questions are read to the students) which makes it difficult to take for some kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Apparently the success rate on appeals is very high. Can anyone that as many as 50% of the kids in the GT centers got in on appeal?

Not even close. In 2004-2005, 2335 children were accepted into the GT Center. 152 of those were accepted after appealing an initial denial of those services. More recent data are not available.

http://www.boarddocs.com/vsba/Fairfax/Board.nsf/39c6389c088be51585256e56000c1bf2/2b1b2b585a5d305e852570fb004f3f9f/$FILE/Gifted%20and%20Talented%20Center%20Program.pdf

If you are asking if appeals are frequently successful, then the answer would be yes. 59% of those who appealed in 2004-05 were eventually declared eligible. Most of those submitted additional test scores.

so the CogAt and NNAT aren't predictive enough? For some apprently it's a good idea to shop around for a test that gives you the result you want.