Anonymous
12/01/2021 12:55
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
OP, what an unsettling story. I’ll be blunt - my read is your daughter totally lacks empathy, to a degree that is very unusual even for the age. It seems she cried only because she was caught, and knows which levers to press for you, and your spouse. Her identity as the class thief is probably already known by her classmates because the teacher had her elsewhere for at least one lunch; written personal apologies might make it better for some of the kids she targeted, but maybe not all.
OP, I am blunt because I’ve met some zero-empathy kids in this age cohort. It’s your job to fix it now, if it’s in fact fixable. I said what I said. It’s not normal behavior, and the analogies some have made (eg, the current comp sci expert who stole pencils) don’t really apply. Your daughter hurt people, OP, saw that, and kept it up. She took meaningful items, not at random, and not impulsively. Your reaction about her “bawling” like that means anything at all is telling. To me it seems very meaningless in terms of harm to others. She understands that a show of contrition is a potential escape hatch. She is bright, according to you. I’m in a very UMC enclave, where as in Lake Wobegon, all the kids are (way) above average by some metrics and in the eyes of their parents, with a minority taking behavioral stuff like what you describe seriously. It’s not cute, it’s not ethical, and it’s not ok as a parent to make this kind of thing small. A child psychologist would be a fantastic investment for her.
OP, I am blunt because I’ve met some zero-empathy kids in this age cohort. It’s your job to fix it now, if it’s in fact fixable. I said what I said. It’s not normal behavior, and the analogies some have made (eg, the current comp sci expert who stole pencils) don’t really apply. Your daughter hurt people, OP, saw that, and kept it up. She took meaningful items, not at random, and not impulsively. Your reaction about her “bawling” like that means anything at all is telling. To me it seems very meaningless in terms of harm to others. She understands that a show of contrition is a potential escape hatch. She is bright, according to you. I’m in a very UMC enclave, where as in Lake Wobegon, all the kids are (way) above average by some metrics and in the eyes of their parents, with a minority taking behavioral stuff like what you describe seriously. It’s not cute, it’s not ethical, and it’s not ok as a parent to make this kind of thing small. A child psychologist would be a fantastic investment for her.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 12:46
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Yikes. Do you not buy your kid popular toys that her classmates have? I'm a teacher and this is why I always request that any non-school related items stay at home.
You should think about switching schools. Every teacher will now know she's a little klepto and now when anything goes missing, she will be suspect #1.
Also, if you make her apologize to each kid, each of those kids will go home and tell their parents: I got my pop it back! Emma stole it but she brought it back and apologized. Boom, there goes your kid's social life.
Trust me on this. I've seen this scenario play out with kids who took far less items than what you described as filling a grocery bag.
Get your kid help. Buy her popular junk toys so she fits in with her peers and isn't jealous of their toys.
You should think about switching schools. Every teacher will now know she's a little klepto and now when anything goes missing, she will be suspect #1.
Also, if you make her apologize to each kid, each of those kids will go home and tell their parents: I got my pop it back! Emma stole it but she brought it back and apologized. Boom, there goes your kid's social life.
Trust me on this. I've seen this scenario play out with kids who took far less items than what you described as filling a grocery bag.
Get your kid help. Buy her popular junk toys so she fits in with her peers and isn't jealous of their toys.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 12:37
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:An apology not to each child she took something from along with a verbal I'm sorry to each one. She knew she was making her classmates cry and kept doing in. She was not sorry she did it. She is sorry she got caught.
+ 1.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 08:54
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:This is a tough one, OP. It's difficult to say what this ritual or pattern meant to your daughter. I'm certainly not prepared to say she has serious issues (read: sociopathy) just because she saw other kids getting upset and didn't have empathy kick in. But there is something about the ritualistic aspect of this that I think you need to at least help her suss out. Is she angry at the kids in her class? Is there something about the lunch hour that is difficult for her? Some teasing going on, or food issues?
Do you feel that the school counselor/psychologist is a trustworthy resource who is generally on the kids' side? If so, start there. If that person is just going to get hung up on the stealing aspect of the situation, and how your child can make amends, I would not. My hunch is the stealing is hook for some other, more powerful issue your kid is dealing with. That's not to say you shouldn't guide your child through an apology to the class, etc., but something is going on here that needs to be addressed that is deeper than the stealing. No child steals 25 stuffed animals unless it is a ritual of some kind with deeper meaning. They have no reason to want or have that many, especially just to store them in a backpack where they are not played with.
I think this post is right. Obviously none of us really know but I would guess there is something else going on and want to know what it is.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 07:50
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Just because she saw the kids crying and didn’t turn herself in doesn’t mean she didn’t feel bad. She just felt more scared of getting in trouble.
Kids internalize what adults think about them. So if you think and treat her like a sociopath before you know she is; she’s going to assume she’s a bad kid and —do bad things.
My kid went through a phase where he made bad choices. About a year of intermittent stupidity. I freaked out thinking he would be some crazy sociopath in the future, but someone advised me to address the choices and not label the behaviors as bad. His school did the same and he’s a super good kid, well-behaved and kind to others.
Don’t treat her like a criminal. Address the situation of course, get her help if she needs it, but she’s only 6! Relax and remind her that she’s a good kid and has to make good choices.
Kids internalize what adults think about them. So if you think and treat her like a sociopath before you know she is; she’s going to assume she’s a bad kid and —do bad things.
My kid went through a phase where he made bad choices. About a year of intermittent stupidity. I freaked out thinking he would be some crazy sociopath in the future, but someone advised me to address the choices and not label the behaviors as bad. His school did the same and he’s a super good kid, well-behaved and kind to others.
Don’t treat her like a criminal. Address the situation of course, get her help if she needs it, but she’s only 6! Relax and remind her that she’s a good kid and has to make good choices.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 06:51
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
This is a tough one, OP. It's difficult to say what this ritual or pattern meant to your daughter. I'm certainly not prepared to say she has serious issues (read: sociopathy) just because she saw other kids getting upset and didn't have empathy kick in. But there is something about the ritualistic aspect of this that I think you need to at least help her suss out. Is she angry at the kids in her class? Is there something about the lunch hour that is difficult for her? Some teasing going on, or food issues?
Do you feel that the school counselor/psychologist is a trustworthy resource who is generally on the kids' side? If so, start there. If that person is just going to get hung up on the stealing aspect of the situation, and how your child can make amends, I would not. My hunch is the stealing is hook for some other, more powerful issue your kid is dealing with. That's not to say you shouldn't guide your child through an apology to the class, etc., but something is going on here that needs to be addressed that is deeper than the stealing. No child steals 25 stuffed animals unless it is a ritual of some kind with deeper meaning. They have no reason to want or have that many, especially just to store them in a backpack where they are not played with.
Do you feel that the school counselor/psychologist is a trustworthy resource who is generally on the kids' side? If so, start there. If that person is just going to get hung up on the stealing aspect of the situation, and how your child can make amends, I would not. My hunch is the stealing is hook for some other, more powerful issue your kid is dealing with. That's not to say you shouldn't guide your child through an apology to the class, etc., but something is going on here that needs to be addressed that is deeper than the stealing. No child steals 25 stuffed animals unless it is a ritual of some kind with deeper meaning. They have no reason to want or have that many, especially just to store them in a backpack where they are not played with.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 06:13
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Every teacher in the school is aware of her actions by now.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 05:47
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
OP, be aware that rule follower kids are often very sneaky. They are caught up in the appearance of being well behaved (crying if they made a mistake, etc.) and really fear the consequences of getting caught. That leads to a focus on not getting caught over honesty. That’s the child you have and it will be a feature of her personality forever. You need to get in the habit of verbally owning up to mistakes and asking for forgiveness. And granting forgiveness when someone else messes up. That’s how you teach her to value doing the right thing over appearing to follow the rules.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 05:34
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Is she an only child? Theft is a denial of ownership. Most kids learn this early if they have siblings. At home, I would start defining clear property boundaries. Ask for permission to play with her doll, make her ask for permission to play with mama‘s makeup brushes. She needs to understand that she may not touch other people’s things without their consent.
She has an older brother
No way was this an only child. Siblings teach you to be possessive, only children care much less about ownership and perceived fairness because they never have competition over resources. Get a clue, PP. I strongly disagree with this PP’s advice. It’s only going to reinforce the yours versus mine mindset that led to this behavior. Next time she’ll be sneakier and learn not to get caught, but still won’t have the empathy and inherent sense of right and wrong to know WHY to make a different decision.
OP, she’s so young still and her sense of ethics is still forming. She made a mistake, but can learn from it. DEemphasize ownership and talk about how it makes the other kids feel when they lose something special to them. Make her understand the emotions and model it at home. You’re not teaching performative behavior, you’re teaching an ethical framework that unfortunately she’s struggled to pick up on her own so far.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 02:58
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
I used to teach first grade and some children stole. There were two types
1) Most kids who stole saw something they wanted and impulsively took the item if they had the chance. They didn't put much thought to it and when caught they usually stopped and felt remorse.
2) Really concerning were students (and I didn't see very many of this type) who stole after really planned it out to get what they wanted AND they stole not because they only really wanted something. Instead they realized that by stealing something they caused another student to be sad. It was as if they enjoyed the power they developed by controlling other students' emotions. These kids were seriously troubled and all of them were good liars and manipulators. I made sure never to be alone in a room with them and documented interactions with them because they were so good at getting their parents to believe them.
1) Most kids who stole saw something they wanted and impulsively took the item if they had the chance. They didn't put much thought to it and when caught they usually stopped and felt remorse.
2) Really concerning were students (and I didn't see very many of this type) who stole after really planned it out to get what they wanted AND they stole not because they only really wanted something. Instead they realized that by stealing something they caused another student to be sad. It was as if they enjoyed the power they developed by controlling other students' emotions. These kids were seriously troubled and all of them were good liars and manipulators. I made sure never to be alone in a room with them and documented interactions with them because they were so good at getting their parents to believe them.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 02:48
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Is she an only child? Theft is a denial of ownership. Most kids learn this early if they have siblings. At home, I would start defining clear property boundaries. Ask for permission to play with her doll, make her ask for permission to play with mama‘s makeup brushes. She needs to understand that she may not touch other people’s things without their consent.
I was an only child and I guarantee you that most only children understand the concept of ownership by the time they start school. If anything, they are probably more particular about it because they haven’t had to share as much. In this case, OPs daughter wssn’t confused about boundaries. If she had been, she would have just grabbed the objectd and been confused when the owner protested. OPs daughter was fully aware she wasn’t supposed to touch things without consent which is why she plotted to do so in secret and why she returned an item when she feared discovery.
aaaaand, why she continued with her scheming plot of going to the bathroom right before lunch.
She saw how easy it was the first time and kept on keeping on -- that's the part that would really make me nervous if I were you, OP.
She kept it up and each time it probably got easier & easier... like muscle memory.
To steal all of those items from the onef classroom is REALLY brazen, and it sounds like she didn't have any sympathy for the crying owners, remorse anytime after she'd done it, or a single concern in the world.
In fact, the ONLY time your daughter expressed any type of distress, was when she became despondent at the thought that she may get in trouble with you/the principal.
The lack of empathy for her upset classmates (some of those kids HAD to be her friends, or kids she purposefully eats her lunch with every day) and the fact that she only showed a shred of emotion because she was concerned for her own well being, is the part that's most alarming & unsettling for me.
If she hadn't been caught, the stealing wouldn't have stopped, she would have become more and more confident in her technique and ampedup what she took.
This is exactly how I read it too!
She didn't cry until caught, and the tears weren't tears of guilt or sympathy, they were tears to protect herself.
Your child is manipulative and untrustworthy... I'd seek advice from the school guidance counselor if they think therapy is warranted, but you MUST have a punishment at home for her.
This will set the tone and her actions for the rest of her childhood.
Anonymous
12/01/2021 02:41
Subject: Re:My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:I wouldnt make her write a note to each kid. Kids carry that kind of stuff with them for years. I would make her write to both teachers though and come up with a serious consequence at home.
+1
Anonymous
12/01/2021 02:00
Subject: Re:My DD has been stealing at school
I think that the other issue to address is the breach of trust. The school and the teacher trusted that she was using the restroom when she was really laying in wait to steal. Now, when she needs to use the restroom, the teacher is going to wonder if that is real or another trick. She has to work hard to earn back the trust of the teacher and the class and that is hard to do. She needs to know this has consequences in terms of how people view her. Can she have a fresh start? Yes. But will she have to demonstrate that she is trustworthy? Yes.
I would worry and try to get counseling / therapy since this seems like a noticeable change in behavior (you characterized her as a rule follower and this is a HUGE break from that). Also the lack of empathy is concerning. There might be something else happening that is worth looking into.
I would worry and try to get counseling / therapy since this seems like a noticeable change in behavior (you characterized her as a rule follower and this is a HUGE break from that). Also the lack of empathy is concerning. There might be something else happening that is worth looking into.
Anonymous
11/30/2021 22:15
Subject: My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I would not be okay with backpack searching. Yes your DD was wrong but I would address this with the principal as it’s a violation of privacy.
This is totally appropriate.
Totally appropriate for this age group. (Besides, teachers need to look in backpacks often for various reasons all the time!)
--- teacher\parent
+3
OP's DD is a public school student whose teachers had reasonable suspicion that she had violated school rules or the law. Legally, she isn't entitled to privacy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_v._T._L._O.
Yeah, if the teacher had called the police to do a “legal” search of backpacks then those same parents would be complaining about the injustice of that.
Believe it or not, we still have property laws in this country, and stealing is a crime. It’s not okay even at 6.
Anonymous
11/30/2021 21:57
Subject: Re:My DD has been stealing at school
Anonymous wrote:
I didn't read all the replies so apologies if this has all been said.
This sentence really stood out to me:
"My DD was able to tell me who every single item belonged to and even told me some of the kids cried when they couldn’t find their stuff." That sentence combined with how she "thought long and hard" and repeated the behavior even after seeing kids cry is troubling.
I would talk to your pediatrician to see if these behaviors might indicate something that needs to be addressed by a professional.
I've been a school based SLP for many years, so I've seen a lot.
Kids take stuff from each other all the time, usually a fancy pen or candy or a toy that someone brings in. Ocassionally, there are repeat offenders and the teacher can usually figure it out once a pattern emerges. Often, it is because a kid is jealous because they don't have the same stuff at home and they just want the item. When kids realize that they made another kid sad, they usually feel terrible, and their empathy really comes out. Also, kids often know who the culprit is and the social stigma of being the "stealer" is a huge deterrant. Stealing is really not a good way to make and keep friends and kids know this.
Something about OP's description just seems more serious to me. The kid seems bright, bright enough to come up with her recurring plan but not worried about making kids feel sad or losing friends. This seems like a more involved issue.
Good luck OP, I hope she can figure out why she went so far with this and also find a way to make amends to her classmates.
This is good advice.