I graduated from high school in 1998 and that year my parents' income was 147k. I well remember this because I needed the information for the college applications and it was the first time I ever knew how much money they made. On that income they were able to pay for two children to go to expensive prep schools and paid for private colleges with no financial aid. My first year tuition plus room and board was around 28k and was close to 33k by the time I graduated four years later. They bought their house in 1993 for 320k and I remember them being hesitant at how expensive it was and it was a 3k sqft house in a nice neighborhood, but it wasn't huge or extravagant and there were definitely more expensive properties. We did have several nice vacations, including European trips in high school but most of our vacations were going to Maine or Cape Cod and we never went to the Caribbean or went skiing. I was conscious of a budget, and was frequently told this or that was too expensive and they refused to spend much on clothing and they drove their cars for a long time in order to pay the school fees. On the other hand, we ate well and I was never aware of money problems. My parents are now retired and comfortably so. I would describe this as upper middle class, with the full knowledge there were even more affluent rungs of the upper middle classes above us.

My parents could do this on an income of up to 147k in the 1990s. You cannot have this lifestyle today on the same income. The prep schools in the 1990s were 10k a year, today they're over 30k (flyover city). The same house is worth around 800k. The colleges are over 70k a year. You would need to be making 250-300k to have a comparable lifestyle today for the same flyover city.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

No one has argued that. You literally can't have any of that on an HHI of 150k in the DMV, except "multiple vacations" (which is insanely broad -- even poor people go on vacations, often more than one a year, they just aren't expensive vacations).

My DH and I make about 140k. We have one kid. We live in the DMV. We worry about money ALL THE TIME. We own a townhouse in a neighborhood with lots of challenges, including objectively struggling schools. Not only is college not "fully funded", but we stress about how we will pay for college for our ONE child regularly. We do take multiple vacations a year, they are stuff like driving to Virginia Beach and staying in an AirBnB for a few days in the off season or flying to visit family (so limited accommodations cost). We eat at home most of the time and we clip coupons. We do not have cable. Housing and student loans are a biggest line items on our budget, by a lot. We are middle class.

In the DMV, a family of 3-4 on 80k (what others are saying is "middle class") is scratching the bottom of the middle class. Less than that you are likely working poor, unless you have other advantages (like inheriting a house in a good school district you could never have afforded otherwise). But yes, 150k is middle class here, and you are not living extravagantly by most measures (unless you are talking about global standards, which we are not). The ability to buy a very modest home, take a couple modest vacations, and save a little bit (but by no means "enough") for college does not magically make you upper class.

How much did you spend on your housing, cars and other things?

We lived very comfortably on $140K and saved for college. We had two old cars (till we had to buy a new one), got the cheapest house we could find and DIY or saved and paid cash for repairs (and it needed everything), and didn't take vacations except a weekend or so once a year. We never worried about money and saved for college and retirement. We weren't living lavishly but if we needed something we could do it.

Saying a modest house means nothing as you can spend a million for what you consider a modest house or a real modest house as in 1000 square feet under $350-400K.

You “lived” very comfortably on 140k… when you were growing up? My family was comfortably middle class on an HHI of 50k. In the 1980s. If you are talking about 15 or more years ago, then yes: 140k was definitely not middle class then.

My public college education in the 90s cost about 10k. Total. I paid for most of it myself by working full time in the summer. The same school now costs 24k/yr for an in state student. My parents bought a 3 bedroom, 1 bathroom home for about 80k in 1982. They sold it for 350k in 1999. It’s now worth over 600k. Same house, same neighborhood, a few updates, same schools. And this is out in a large town in flyover country, far from a major city.

Times have changed.

Times

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

No one has argued that. You literally can't have any of that on an HHI of 150k in the DMV, except "multiple vacations" (which is insanely broad -- even poor people go on vacations, often more than one a year, they just aren't expensive vacations).

My DH and I make about 140k. We have one kid. We live in the DMV. We worry about money ALL THE TIME. We own a townhouse in a neighborhood with lots of challenges, including objectively struggling schools. Not only is college not "fully funded", but we stress about how we will pay for college for our ONE child regularly. We do take multiple vacations a year, they are stuff like driving to Virginia Beach and staying in an AirBnB for a few days in the off season or flying to visit family (so limited accommodations cost). We eat at home most of the time and we clip coupons. We do not have cable. Housing and student loans are a biggest line items on our budget, by a lot. We are middle class.

In the DMV, a family of 3-4 on 80k (what others are saying is "middle class") is scratching the bottom of the middle class. Less than that you are likely working poor, unless you have other advantages (like inheriting a house in a good school district you could never have afforded otherwise). But yes, 150k is middle class here, and you are not living extravagantly by most measures (unless you are talking about global standards, which we are not). The ability to buy a very modest home, take a couple modest vacations, and save a little bit (but by no means "enough") for college does not magically make you upper class.

How much did you spend on your housing, cars and other things?

We lived very comfortably on $140K and saved for college. We had two old cars (till we had to buy a new one), got the cheapest house we could find and DIY or saved and paid cash for repairs (and it needed everything), and didn't take vacations except a weekend or so once a year. We never worried about money and saved for college and retirement. We weren't living lavishly but if we needed something we could do it.

Saying a modest house means nothing as you can spend a million for what you consider a modest house or a real modest house as in 1000 square feet under $350-400K.

She and her husband are still paying off student loans.

It sounds like your kids are already out of college, so you're not saving for college now, are you? Or buying in today's real estate market? Anything you buy in the DMV on a 140k income is going to be exceedingly modest.

I'd get a housecleaner every week instead of every month.
I wouldn't have to think twice about regular vacation travel (nothing elaborate, just could fly to see family instead of always driving)
Would do more short getaways with my DH
Would probably eat out more.

Was this the point of this thread?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

No one has argued that. You literally can't have any of that on an HHI of 150k in the DMV, except "multiple vacations" (which is insanely broad -- even poor people go on vacations, often more than one a year, they just aren't expensive vacations).

My DH and I make about 140k. We have one kid. We live in the DMV. We worry about money ALL THE TIME. We own a townhouse in a neighborhood with lots of challenges, including objectively struggling schools. Not only is college not "fully funded", but we stress about how we will pay for college for our ONE child regularly. We do take multiple vacations a year, they are stuff like driving to Virginia Beach and staying in an AirBnB for a few days in the off season or flying to visit family (so limited accommodations cost). We eat at home most of the time and we clip coupons. We do not have cable. Housing and student loans are a biggest line items on our budget, by a lot. We are middle class.

In the DMV, a family of 3-4 on 80k (what others are saying is "middle class") is scratching the bottom of the middle class. Less than that you are likely working poor, unless you have other advantages (like inheriting a house in a good school district you could never have afforded otherwise). But yes, 150k is middle class here, and you are not living extravagantly by most measures (unless you are talking about global standards, which we are not). The ability to buy a very modest home, take a couple modest vacations, and save a little bit (but by no means "enough") for college does not magically make you upper class.

Did you grow up middle class? I did, and multiple vacations a year is not middle class.

Middle class means you are on a grocery budget and you buy almost everything on sale so you go to three different grocery stores to hit the sales. It means Christmas gifts for kids are bought throughout the year (on sale) and mostly consist of practical things like clothes. It means vacations typically involve driving, packing your own breakfasts or lunches and staying somewhere like the holiday inn us considered fancy. Some years we didn’t have vacations depending on other expenses. I almost never (like maybe 3 times in my childhood) went to the movie theatre to see a movie. We didn’t have a college fund, and we all took out loans and got financial aid. We got “take out” once every coupe of weeks to once a month and it was either pizza or KFC (just the chicken and my mom would make some sides). We weren’t poor - my parents always managed to save a bit and bought a house in a nice neighborhood (in a small city) but money was always something we thought about.

My DH grew up UMC and he would describe middle class like you have. But it’s not.

To answer the question, more $$ meant we could have the number of kids we wanted because we could afford a house with another bedroom and childcare expenses.

Traveling/vacation is a bit of a red herring. We don't travel much for financial reasons but our cleaner manages to fly to her home country twice a year....

Your description to me reads working class, not middle middle class. Some of it even sounds poor rather than middle class. Never going to the movie theaters because you can't afford it is genuine poverty except that the poor do go to movie theaters while your parents had a mortgage. You are guilty of projecting your perception of middle class across the spectrum and calling anything slightly more comfortable than your childhood as upper middle class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

No one has argued that. You literally can't have any of that on an HHI of 150k in the DMV, except "multiple vacations" (which is insanely broad -- even poor people go on vacations, often more than one a year, they just aren't expensive vacations).

My DH and I make about 140k. We have one kid. We live in the DMV. We worry about money ALL THE TIME. We own a townhouse in a neighborhood with lots of challenges, including objectively struggling schools. Not only is college not "fully funded", but we stress about how we will pay for college for our ONE child regularly. We do take multiple vacations a year, they are stuff like driving to Virginia Beach and staying in an AirBnB for a few days in the off season or flying to visit family (so limited accommodations cost). We eat at home most of the time and we clip coupons. We do not have cable. Housing and student loans are a biggest line items on our budget, by a lot. We are middle class.

In the DMV, a family of 3-4 on 80k (what others are saying is "middle class") is scratching the bottom of the middle class. Less than that you are likely working poor, unless you have other advantages (like inheriting a house in a good school district you could never have afforded otherwise). But yes, 150k is middle class here, and you are not living extravagantly by most measures (unless you are talking about global standards, which we are not). The ability to buy a very modest home, take a couple modest vacations, and save a little bit (but by no means "enough") for college does not magically make you upper class.

How much did you spend on your housing, cars and other things?

We lived very comfortably on $140K and saved for college. We had two old cars (till we had to buy a new one), got the cheapest house we could find and DIY or saved and paid cash for repairs (and it needed everything), and didn't take vacations except a weekend or so once a year. We never worried about money and saved for college and retirement. We weren't living lavishly but if we needed something we could do it.

Saying a modest house means nothing as you can spend a million for what you consider a modest house or a real modest house as in 1000 square feet under $350-400K.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

No one has argued that. You literally can't have any of that on an HHI of 150k in the DMV, except "multiple vacations" (which is insanely broad -- even poor people go on vacations, often more than one a year, they just aren't expensive vacations).

My DH and I make about 140k. We have one kid. We live in the DMV. We worry about money ALL THE TIME. We own a townhouse in a neighborhood with lots of challenges, including objectively struggling schools. Not only is college not "fully funded", but we stress about how we will pay for college for our ONE child regularly. We do take multiple vacations a year, they are stuff like driving to Virginia Beach and staying in an AirBnB for a few days in the off season or flying to visit family (so limited accommodations cost). We eat at home most of the time and we clip coupons. We do not have cable. Housing and student loans are a biggest line items on our budget, by a lot. We are middle class.

In the DMV, a family of 3-4 on 80k (what others are saying is "middle class") is scratching the bottom of the middle class. Less than that you are likely working poor, unless you have other advantages (like inheriting a house in a good school district you could never have afforded otherwise). But yes, 150k is middle class here, and you are not living extravagantly by most measures (unless you are talking about global standards, which we are not). The ability to buy a very modest home, take a couple modest vacations, and save a little bit (but by no means "enough") for college does not magically make you upper class.

Did you grow up middle class? I did, and multiple vacations a year is not middle class.

Middle class means you are on a grocery budget and you buy almost everything on sale so you go to three different grocery stores to hit the sales. It means Christmas gifts for kids are bought throughout the year (on sale) and mostly consist of practical things like clothes. It means vacations typically involve driving, packing your own breakfasts or lunches and staying somewhere like the holiday inn us considered fancy. Some years we didn’t have vacations depending on other expenses. I almost never (like maybe 3 times in my childhood) went to the movie theatre to see a movie. We didn’t have a college fund, and we all took out loans and got financial aid. We got “take out” once every coupe of weeks to once a month and it was either pizza or KFC (just the chicken and my mom would make some sides). We weren’t poor - my parents always managed to save a bit and bought a house in a nice neighborhood (in a small city) but money was always something we thought about.

My DH grew up UMC and he would describe middle class like you have. But it’s not.

To answer the question, more $$ meant we could have the number of kids we wanted because we could afford a house with another bedroom and childcare expenses.

Anonymous wrote:Some of you on DCUM are out of touch with the reality.
Middle class does not mean:
- Not having to worry about money
- Having a house in the most attractive neighborhood.
- Sending kids to the best schools in the state
- Having college fully funded
- Multiple vacations

If that's what you think you should have to be middle class, you are wrong. That's what makes you upper middle class or rich.

No one has argued that. You literally can't have any of that on an HHI of 150k in the DMV, except "multiple vacations" (which is insanely broad -- even poor people go on vacations, often more than one a year, they just aren't expensive vacations).

My DH and I make about 140k. We have one kid. We live in the DMV. We worry about money ALL THE TIME. We own a townhouse in a neighborhood with lots of challenges, including objectively struggling schools. Not only is college not "fully funded", but we stress about how we will pay for college for our ONE child regularly. We do take multiple vacations a year, they are stuff like driving to Virginia Beach and staying in an AirBnB for a few days in the off season or flying to visit family (so limited accommodations cost). We eat at home most of the time and we clip coupons. We do not have cable. Housing and student loans are a biggest line items on our budget, by a lot. We are middle class.

In the DMV, a family of 3-4 on 80k (what others are saying is "middle class") is scratching the bottom of the middle class. Less than that you are likely working poor, unless you have other advantages (like inheriting a house in a good school district you could never have afforded otherwise). But yes, 150k is middle class here, and you are not living extravagantly by most measures (unless you are talking about global standards, which we are not). The ability to buy a very modest home, take a couple modest vacations, and save a little bit (but by no means "enough") for college does not magically make you upper class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I do think that middle class no longer refers to the middle of the income spectrum. Historically, in Europe the middle classes were people in the approx top 20% of the population. Just underneath the 1% who were primarily the aristocracy. The rest were the working classes, and then the outright poor.

When I consider the assumptions for a standard middle of the pack American middle class lifestyle, it means having a standard SFH, say 1800-2200 sqft, two cars that aren't junkers, one trip a year to a beach, some savings for rainy days and retirement, being able to help with college, going out to dinner once in a while - that's what people took for granted as a middle class life in the 1980s. The difference from the 1950s was that it could be had on one income in the 50s, in the 80s it was taking two incomes but it was still a middle class life.

Today? I'd think 150k is really the threshold when you can do this for a family. A family of four living off 80k in most metro area is not middle class, but working class.

There's been a lot of talk about the hollowing out of the middle classes and growing income disparities, and this is a big part of it.

Your idea of middle class is skewed. Middle class don’t take yearly beach vacations, two newer cars and larger homes.

It's probably not as warped as a poor family thinking they're still middle class.

In what society is a yearly family vacation not a middle class thing to do? Or driving two basic cars? Or where a 2,000 sqft house is a larger house?

A PP above commented that being middle class meant you had more than just addressing your basic needs.

I think a pretty good gauge of what a smack dab in the middle middle class HHI should be is a pair of married schoolteachers. In Howard County, two teachers with 15 years' teaching experience (so early 40s, prime family age) will have a joint HHI of between 150-160, because they will make between 75 to 80k each. 150k is very much the "real life" middle class HHI for a family in most metro areas in order to be able to afford a modest house, run two decent cars, and have a decent life that is a bit more than just addressing your basic needs. This is corroborated by that the national average price for a SFH is 360kish, which is what a family making 150k can afford. If that's the average price for a single family house, then it does strongly suggest the average smack dab in the middle class income is 150kish.

That’s not middle class. Upper middle maybe but middle class no. What you are describing is upper middle class.

Very few people would call married teachers upper middle class. Or a 360k house an upper middle class house. In Howard, for example, that buys you a simple townhouse. The hypothetical teacher couple could also chose to commute from Carroll County where the 360k can get them a very modest SFH. But in neither case are they upper middle class.

What's happened is that the overton window for a middle class has shifted upwards. You're trapping yourself into thinking that middle class has to be right in the middle, aka median income. Keep in mind a median income is disproportionately skewed by singles, couples without children, retirees and all that. For a functioning family unit of two working parents and children it's a very different story.

That's why the average price for a SFH nationally is 360k, because that represents the real middle class family HHI. Otherwise you are arguing that the middle classes can't afford SFH.

You need to get out of the DC mindset, but yes, its not middle class. It sucks money does not go as far in this area, but its not middle class.

So everyone is rich apparently.

We live in a 1000 square foot house we bought for around $400K. Middle class cannot afford our house. Be real.

I don't know where you are but in the Baltimore suburbs 350k is about average for a standard older detached SFH with decent schools in ordinary areas. Those houses are usually between 1500-1800 sqft. That's very middle class. Are there cheaper housing? Sure. The people who buy them are working to lower middle class. Same for more expensive housing for the upper middle classes. From what I can tell that's fairly representative of middle America / flyover.

If the *national* average for a SFH is 360k, it's pointless arguing the middle classes can't afford a 400k house in the DMV, which is an entirely different ballgame. I suspect you're hung up on thinking working classes are the middle classes when they are really just working class or maybe lower middle class.

I'm not clear on the argument here. Is it that there should be no regional variation in where you draw class lines, such that a "middle class" standard of living is based on national averages no matter where you are? I feel like this obscures things a bit and means that you can't actually say "here are the standard of living markers" because those DO vary based on where you live.