Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 20:44     Subject: attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.


Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?


DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.


It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.


Because I'm a woman, I must not understand workplace dynamics between men and women? With an attitude like that, I can see why you personally are reluctant to interact with women in the workplace. There are no data to support the idea that lots of women invent claims of sexual harassment at work. I've personally never seen such a claim, true or untrue, become public knowledge or result in any consequences, and I've been in biglaw for 13 years. As with rape, there are vastly more incidents that are never reported than there are instances of false reporting. If you feel like a target, there's probably a good reason for that.


Scary to think you are in Big Law with reasoning skills like that.

First, this isn't about "dynamics between men and women". It is about whether it is reasonable for a man to fear a false accusation. As a woman, you can't understand that. Sorry to be the one to tell you. Just like a man is not going to understand a woman's fear about certain other situations.

Second, whether or not there are lots of instances of false reporting, there is a perception among men that it is a risk. Just look at this thread if you don't believe me. Ask a male friend or colleague who you think will tell you the truth.

Third, even if the risk of a false report is very low, the loss of reputation that would result is not worth any benefits of whatever the one-one-one interaction will bring. This is the B > P*L you learned about it law school. Why risk it? What is the magnitude of the benefit to a male in management of mentoring the female subordinate in a one-on-one situation? Very small.


But that's my point - it isn't "reasonable." There is no rational basis for this view, and it is hardly universal. My husband is a partner in a different firm (not law) and does not have this fear. He has had multiple female and male mentees over the years (and mentors, for that matter, when he was more junior). I have also had male and female mentors and mentees. The reason to "risk" it (again, acknowledging they the actual risk here is virtually nil) is because it's the right thing to do, to help create equal opportunities for men and women.


So we disagree on the risk. You continue to have private meetings with the opposite sex, I’ll continue to only have public meetings and let’s both respect each other’s views.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 20:33     Subject: attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.


Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?


DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.


It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.


Because I'm a woman, I must not understand workplace dynamics between men and women? With an attitude like that, I can see why you personally are reluctant to interact with women in the workplace. There are no data to support the idea that lots of women invent claims of sexual harassment at work. I've personally never seen such a claim, true or untrue, become public knowledge or result in any consequences, and I've been in biglaw for 13 years. As with rape, there are vastly more incidents that are never reported than there are instances of false reporting. If you feel like a target, there's probably a good reason for that.


Scary to think you are in Big Law with reasoning skills like that.

First, this isn't about "dynamics between men and women". It is about whether it is reasonable for a man to fear a false accusation. As a woman, you can't understand that. Sorry to be the one to tell you. Just like a man is not going to understand a woman's fear about certain other situations.

Second, whether or not there are lots of instances of false reporting, there is a perception among men that it is a risk. Just look at this thread if you don't believe me. Ask a male friend or colleague who you think will tell you the truth.

Third, even if the risk of a false report is very low, the loss of reputation that would result is not worth any benefits of whatever the one-one-one interaction will bring. This is the B > P*L you learned about it law school. Why risk it? What is the magnitude of the benefit to a male in management of mentoring the female subordinate in a one-on-one situation? Very small.


But that's my point - it isn't "reasonable." There is no rational basis for this view, and it is hardly universal. My husband is a partner in a different firm (not law) and does not have this fear. He has had multiple female and male mentees over the years (and mentors, for that matter, when he was more junior). I have also had male and female mentors and mentees. The reason to "risk" it (again, acknowledging they the actual risk here is virtually nil) is because it's the right thing to do, to help create equal opportunities for men and women.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 20:26     Subject: attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:Similar to not getting an attractive nanny, do you have a say in who your husband's doctor, dentist, therapist, salon, etc... ?

Just wondering!


Good Lord
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 20:25     Subject: attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.


Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?


DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.


It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.


Because I'm a woman, I must not understand workplace dynamics between men and women? With an attitude like that, I can see why you personally are reluctant to interact with women in the workplace. There are no data to support the idea that lots of women invent claims of sexual harassment at work. I've personally never seen such a claim, true or untrue, become public knowledge or result in any consequences, and I've been in biglaw for 13 years. As with rape, there are vastly more incidents that are never reported than there are instances of false reporting. If you feel like a target, there's probably a good reason for that.


Scary to think you are in Big Law with reasoning skills like that.

First, this isn't about "dynamics between men and women". It is about whether it is reasonable for a man to fear a false accusation. As a woman, you can't understand that. Sorry to be the one to tell you. Just like a man is not going to understand a woman's fear about certain other situations.

Second, whether or not there are lots of instances of false reporting, there is a perception among men that it is a risk. Just look at this thread if you don't believe me. Ask a male friend or colleague who you think will tell you the truth.

Third, even if the risk of a false report is very low, the loss of reputation that would result is not worth any benefits of whatever the one-one-one interaction will bring. This is the B > P*L you learned about it law school. Why risk it? What is the magnitude of the benefit to a male in management of mentoring the female subordinate in a one-on-one situation? Very small.


I’m the PP first quoted. I’ve never sexually harassed anyone and I don’t specifically fear a false report. It’s simply not worth the risk. The immediate PP gets it.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 19:50     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't want my DH alone with attractive women. It's not that I don't trust him specifically but men are as faithful as their options.


Thank you Mrs. Pence! FWIW - everyone has options but a good husband passes them by. You do not trust your husband.


Yes, this. How do you women live thinking that your husband is only as faithful as his options? Seriously, how do you sleep at night if he's on a work trip? How do you even manage to get through a day if he's out of your sight? Yikes. I feel sorry for you.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 19:49     Subject: attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:For everyone who keeps suggesting that men are opening themselves up to liability by mentoring one gender and not the other, you're missing a key component in the risk analysis.

If a man is accused of treating women differently by not mentoring them, the woman files a discrimination complaint and is required to prove her claim.

If a woman accuses a man of an inappropriate overture, true or not, the accusation is the conviction and that man's career will be forever affected by that.

In the final analysis, many men would rather take their chances with a jury in the court system than be convicted by accusation.


Do you really feel that you cannot be one on one with a female colleague without making an inappropriate overture?

Or do you think that women are just crazily accusing random men of sexual harassment/assault?
And if the women are just crazy, then what does it matter if you *really* met 1:1 with them or not? Couldn’t they accuse you either way? In fact, wouldn’t it be LESS likely that they would accuse someone they know to be kind and respectful vs someone they just see around the office?


DP. +1. I don't understand this attitude at all. Men who feel this way appear to think either (1) they don't understand how to interact with women without harassing them, or (2) there is a significant risk that a woman will falsely accuse them of sexual harassment (why?). Somehow I make it through my days without sexually harassing people, nor have I ever been falsely accused of doing so. And yet this baseline level of professional competency somehow eludes large numbers of men.


It is the risk/reward though. And yes, lots of guys think lots of women make up claims of harassment or otherwise inappropriate behavior when they are mad about things. Whether true or not, there is very little upside to these one-on-one interactions for a higher-up, and a huge downside risk, even if the probability is low.

And my guess is that you are a woman, so you don't get the dynamic.


Because I'm a woman, I must not understand workplace dynamics between men and women? With an attitude like that, I can see why you personally are reluctant to interact with women in the workplace. There are no data to support the idea that lots of women invent claims of sexual harassment at work. I've personally never seen such a claim, true or untrue, become public knowledge or result in any consequences, and I've been in biglaw for 13 years. As with rape, there are vastly more incidents that are never reported than there are instances of false reporting. If you feel like a target, there's probably a good reason for that.


Scary to think you are in Big Law with reasoning skills like that.

First, this isn't about "dynamics between men and women". It is about whether it is reasonable for a man to fear a false accusation. As a woman, you can't understand that. Sorry to be the one to tell you. Just like a man is not going to understand a woman's fear about certain other situations.

Second, whether or not there are lots of instances of false reporting, there is a perception among men that it is a risk. Just look at this thread if you don't believe me. Ask a male friend or colleague who you think will tell you the truth.

Third, even if the risk of a false report is very low, the loss of reputation that would result is not worth any benefits of whatever the one-one-one interaction will bring. This is the B > P*L you learned about it law school. Why risk it? What is the magnitude of the benefit to a male in management of mentoring the female subordinate in a one-on-one situation? Very small.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 19:30     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
We have a women in the law mentoring group but the anonymous truth is it's worthless because the women don't do a lot out of the office and few of them control business.


You don't see a connection between men's apparent inability to mentor women without fearing they will sexually harass them and the lack of women in leadership positions?


Men do a lot more to mentor men than women to mentor women. Men aren't afraid to mentor women because they fear they can't control themselves but because some are married to women who object to it and some are afraid of being perceived as crossing a line which can happen when drinks are involved.

If you are asking me to admit this is unfair to women, yes.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 19:24     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
We have a women in the law mentoring group but the anonymous truth is it's worthless because the women don't do a lot out of the office and few of them control business.


You don't see a connection between men's apparent inability to mentor women without fearing they will sexually harass them and the lack of women in leadership positions?
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 18:53     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While my wife doesn't get a say in who my company hires to work for me (obviously), she does not want me to have dinner or drinks with my female subordinates. I think it's petty but it's not worth the fight. So I do lunch with the women (in groups only) and drinks with the men.



And this is why women have trouble advancing in the workplace.


Don’t blame it on the men who have gotten very gun shy due to #metoo.


If they’re not sexually harassing anyone, I’m not clear why they’d be gun shy.


When you're one on one, it's always a concern for men. I wouldn't mentor a female outside the workplace. If you want your face time do it in the office.


Then don’t be one on one with men either.


Sorry, that's not the real world. Everything can't always be fair. With almost every other post on the DCUM railing on men and how misogynist we all are, there is good reason for men to be concerned. You think we don't see that? Don't kid yourself into thinking men have to somehow be altruistic to every woman who wants to advance her career. You guys have effed yourselves.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 18:44     Subject: attractive workers and your DH
My husband is in real estate development and leasing. He works with a lot of very attractive women who work at brokerage firms. There is one associated who I will admit I'm jealous of when they're on a project together. She's gorgeous. A young Jessica Alba or Minka Kelly type. I've never told him, but I am jealous.

I've seen her at work functions (before the pandemic) and it's a swarm of men around her. Do I think my husband will cheat? No. But, that still doesn't mean I like it .
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 18:40     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:I don't want my DH alone with attractive women. It's not that I don't trust him specifically but men are as faithful as their options.


Yes, it is because you don't trust him. You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "trust". Your second sentence literally says you do not trust him.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 18:38     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While my wife doesn't get a say in who my company hires to work for me (obviously), she does not want me to have dinner or drinks with my female subordinates. I think it's petty but it's not worth the fight. So I do lunch with the women (in groups only) and drinks with the men.



And this is why women have trouble advancing in the workplace.


Don’t blame it on the men who have gotten very gun shy due to #metoo.


If they’re not sexually harassing anyone, I’m not clear why they’d be gun shy.


When you're one on one, it's always a concern for men. I wouldn't mentor a female outside the workplace. If you want your face time do it in the office.


Agree. My wife wouldn't be jealous at all. But I would never have one-on-one drinks or dinner with any women subordinate. Consequently, I also don't have one-on-one drinks or dinner with males subordinates because I think that's unfair to women. So I either have group get togethers outside of work, or nothing.

But I will certainly not set myself up for any sort of claim of bias or harassment.


This is a fair and thoughtful approach. I don’t have a problem with men choosing not to participate in certain activities with ALL subordinates/colleagues, but if they engage in specific networking activities with men but NOT with women - that’s a problem.


Why is that a problem? There are networking groups for every ethnic minority out there and lots specifically for women. The only problem is your perception that it is. Men can and should network specifically with their own gender.


We’re talking about developing within the workplace - you geniunely think male bosses should fraternize only with men?


Are you concerned that's biased - men networking only with men? I've been in the workforce long enough to see it isn't just us. Some women find reasons to hire only women, gays will hire their own as will every minority. Bias is everywhere. It isn't entirely the domain of men.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 18:06     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:I don't want my DH alone with attractive women. It's not that I don't trust him specifically but men are as faithful as their options.


Thank you Mrs. Pence! FWIW - everyone has options but a good husband passes them by. You do not trust your husband.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 18:00     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
I don't want my DH alone with attractive women. It's not that I don't trust him specifically but men are as faithful as their options.
Anonymous
Post 10/14/2021 17:59     Subject: Re:attractive workers and your DH
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:While my wife doesn't get a say in who my company hires to work for me (obviously), she does not want me to have dinner or drinks with my female subordinates. I think it's petty but it's not worth the fight. So I do lunch with the women (in groups only) and drinks with the men.



And this is why women have trouble advancing in the workplace.


Don’t blame it on the men who have gotten very gun shy due to #metoo.


If they’re not sexually harassing anyone, I’m not clear why they’d be gun shy.


When you're one on one, it's always a concern for men. I wouldn't mentor a female outside the workplace. If you want your face time do it in the office.


Agree. My wife wouldn't be jealous at all. But I would never have one-on-one drinks or dinner with any women subordinate. Consequently, I also don't have one-on-one drinks or dinner with males subordinates because I think that's unfair to women. So I either have group get togethers outside of work, or nothing.

But I will certainly not set myself up for any sort of claim of bias or harassment.


This is a fair and thoughtful approach. I don’t have a problem with men choosing not to participate in certain activities with ALL subordinates/colleagues, but if they engage in specific networking activities with men but NOT with women - that’s a problem.


Why is that a problem? There are networking groups for every ethnic minority out there and lots specifically for women. The only problem is your perception that it is. Men can and should network specifically with their own gender.


We’re talking about developing within the workplace - you geniunely think male bosses should fraternize only with men?