Anonymous wrote:I think college is worth it for most kids. But it doesn't have to be a big name brand school.

I went to a big state school and it was the happiest, most carefree and fun time of my life. And I walked straight out into a job in my field.

+1

college is more than storing mostly useless information, it's getting the knowledge on how to complete projects, how to organize your time at more adult level, how to learn fast new material, and also getting into groups of people with common interests, getting partners for life and business

some degrees actually get you into job right of out of school like engineers, most have summer internships where they get some experience

Yes, such a scam... look at all the millionaires and billionaires who don't make their kids go get a degree, any degree.

Oh, wait. They basically all send their kids to decent colleges. Including right wing agitators like Tucker Carlson. I believe all of Carlson's kids graduated from UVA.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bill mahre was talking about this on his show saying that people are paying a fortune on degrees, than waiting tables anyway, because it’s hard to find work. He also said most people don’t even need degrees. What are your thoughts?

"Top" US schools, full pay = scam.

Rest = depends.

Full pay for non T20-30 privates are a scam, big time.

No one is really "full pay" at a nonprofit college; the endowment is helping to pay.

College rankings are something of a scam; a top-whatever school isn't generally that different from a school twenty points lower, and the lower-ranked school may be a better fit for a lot of kids.

Yes, I concur. The quality of education isn't that different, but the outcomes can be significantly different. Even among the T20, the Ivies and Stanford+MIT place much better (per capita) in top professional schools, finance, consulting, tech (generally the most profitable industries) over similarly ranked non-ivies and opens more doors to elite jobs. Top hedge funds, quant trading firms, private equity recruit ivy leaguers straight out of undergrad without even the need for a MBA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

This is a disgusting and demeaning point of view. Why would plumbers be less than "citizens" and why wouldn't someone who chose a trade like plumbing "know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning?"

Yeah....that PP thought they were making a good point, but really only revealed some seriously problematic views.

I am not that PP, but the fact is, there are a lot of un/under-educated people who believe COVID is a hoax, that horse paste will fix it, and that everyone in the medical profession is trying to scam them. No, they aren't plumbers, but we have a major lack of critical thinking skills in our populace.

NP here. I'm about as over-educated as it gets, and I agree with the bolded. I think a good question, though, is whether college is solving for this problem...and also whether it should. At this point, at least partially due to cost, most people seem to think of college in terms of ROI on career outcomes. I don't think we will readily change that point-of-view anytime soon. And it's impossible to do so given the cost of college these days. If a MC person has to save from practically the day their kid is born to send their kid to college, you can't really say that it's a pre-requisite to being an informed civic participant.

I think that our K-12 public education is shockingly bad in many places. The curriculum isn't, but the execution is. There is no reason that a K-12 system can't teach critical thinking and all of the basics for living in modern society (e.g. 18th Century math, using a computer, basic biology, informative writing, reading comprehension, etc)...we just don't emphasize it enough. It's one of the reasons I am fairly ambivalent on the student loan forgiveness and free college platforms. I understand why they would increase equity in the world as currently structured, but the structure is inherently flawed. We need much better K-12 education. And we need higher education that is better tailored to a variety of career/professional outcomes. But college education should not be a pre-requisite to understanding and participating in civic life. (Not to mention, it's not like college is doing a great job with critical thinking either.)

I don't think college is a huge scam. The American higher education system is one of our nation's greatest assets. But that doesn't mean it's a panacea...and we need to recognize what it is and isn't good for.

most (if not all) 4 year colleges with SAT averages <1000 are absolutely scams.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bill mahre was talking about this on his show saying that people are paying a fortune on degrees, than waiting tables anyway, because it’s hard to find work. He also said most people don’t even need degrees. What are your thoughts?

"Top" US schools, full pay = scam.

Rest = depends.

Full pay for non T20-30 privates are a scam, big time.

No one is really "full pay" at a nonprofit college; the endowment is helping to pay.

College rankings are something of a scam; a top-whatever school isn't generally that different from a school twenty points lower, and the lower-ranked school may be a better fit for a lot of kids.

Anonymous wrote:Bill mahre was talking about this on his show saying that people are paying a fortune on degrees, than waiting tables anyway, because it’s hard to find work. He also said most people don’t even need degrees. What are your thoughts?

Can you not spot a grossly distorted generalization when you hear one? That's exactly what this statement is. It's an exaggerated, evidence-free statement intended to provoke. And it's made by someone who is trying to stay relevant by saying such things and getting attention. When he comes up with a seriously researched, extensive, factually supported investigation and publishes that, then you can give him a little credence.

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Anonymous wrote:College is not trade school.

It also shouldn't be judged by "ROI," but if you must look at college degree that way, just look at the difference in salary/income earned by college grads vs. non-college grads. It's significant.

Take the college $ and invest it, then compare wealth of a college grad and a plumber,

will the government give me that money in the form of both grants and fixed low interest loans? If not, there is no point in comparing. College is heavily subsidized (even if it is still expensive), an 18 year old having a couple of hundred k to invest is not

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

This is a disgusting and demeaning point of view. Why would plumbers be less than "citizens" and why wouldn't someone who chose a trade like plumbing "know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning?"

Yeah....that PP thought they were making a good point, but really only revealed some seriously problematic views.

I am not that PP, but the fact is, there are a lot of un/under-educated people who believe COVID is a hoax, that horse paste will fix it, and that everyone in the medical profession is trying to scam them. No, they aren't plumbers, but we have a major lack of critical thinking skills in our populace.

I'm hesitant to take this down a rabbit hole, but.....This is true with respect to the COVID vaccine, but not true overall.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200310141309.htm
ate:
March 10, 2020
Source:
University of Texas at Austin
Summary:
Texans who are college-educated, live in suburban or urban areas, have higher median incomes and are ethnically white are less likely to vaccinate their children, according to an analysis.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/why-are-the-educated-more-likely-to-be-against-vaccines
Why Are So Many Anti-Vaxxers in Educated, Affluent Areas?
Studies show that affluent urban areas with high education rates can have large pockets of people against vaccines. Isn't that counterintuitive?


There is a correlation between people who didn't go to college and Trump supports, which then translates to COVID anti-vax. But it isn't true of all vaccines. I'm not sure that the current example alone supports your thesis, which I believe is that college educated are overall somehow "better citizens" and have more common sense. And even if there is a correlation, it doesn't necessarily mean causation.

if I read that correctly a lot of that is due to religious exemptions.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

This is a disgusting and demeaning point of view. Why would plumbers be less than "citizens" and why wouldn't someone who chose a trade like plumbing "know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning?"

Yeah....that PP thought they were making a good point, but really only revealed some seriously problematic views.

I am not that PP, but the fact is, there are a lot of un/under-educated people who believe COVID is a hoax, that horse paste will fix it, and that everyone in the medical profession is trying to scam them. No, they aren't plumbers, but we have a major lack of critical thinking skills in our populace.

I'm hesitant to take this down a rabbit hole, but.....This is true with respect to the COVID vaccine, but not true overall.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200310141309.htm
ate:
March 10, 2020
Source:
University of Texas at Austin
Summary:
Texans who are college-educated, live in suburban or urban areas, have higher median incomes and are ethnically white are less likely to vaccinate their children, according to an analysis.

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/why-are-the-educated-more-likely-to-be-against-vaccines
Why Are So Many Anti-Vaxxers in Educated, Affluent Areas?
Studies show that affluent urban areas with high education rates can have large pockets of people against vaccines. Isn't that counterintuitive?


There is a correlation between people who didn't go to college and Trump supports, which then translates to COVID anti-vax. But it isn't true of all vaccines. I'm not sure that the current example alone supports your thesis, which I believe is that college educated are overall somehow "better citizens" and have more common sense. And even if there is a correlation, it doesn't necessarily mean causation.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

This is a disgusting and demeaning point of view. Why would plumbers be less than "citizens" and why wouldn't someone who chose a trade like plumbing "know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning?"

Yeah....that PP thought they were making a good point, but really only revealed some seriously problematic views.

I am not that PP, but the fact is, there are a lot of un/under-educated people who believe COVID is a hoax, that horse paste will fix it, and that everyone in the medical profession is trying to scam them. No, they aren't plumbers, but we have a major lack of critical thinking skills in our populace.

You can always tell the difference when talking to someone who went to college and who didn't

This is true.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

This is a disgusting and demeaning point of view. Why would plumbers be less than "citizens" and why wouldn't someone who chose a trade like plumbing "know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning?"

Yeah....that PP thought they were making a good point, but really only revealed some seriously problematic views.

I am not that PP, but the fact is, there are a lot of un/under-educated people who believe COVID is a hoax, that horse paste will fix it, and that everyone in the medical profession is trying to scam them. No, they aren't plumbers, but we have a major lack of critical thinking skills in our populace.

You can always tell the difference when talking to someone who went to college and who didn't

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Education isn't just a vocational undertaking. We want plumbers, sure. But we also want citizens. We want people who know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning.

Paying $30k/year to learn how to make widgets isn't really the best investment. But if you find a place that helps you land a higher paying job and teaches you what you need to know to be a more complete person, then it's a good investment.

This is a disgusting and demeaning point of view. Why would plumbers be less than "citizens" and why wouldn't someone who chose a trade like plumbing "know how to live life with a sense of purpose and meaning?"

Yeah....that PP thought they were making a good point, but really only revealed some seriously problematic views.

I am not that PP, but the fact is, there are a lot of un/under-educated people who believe COVID is a hoax, that horse paste will fix it, and that everyone in the medical profession is trying to scam them. No, they aren't plumbers, but we have a major lack of critical thinking skills in our populace.

Anonymous wrote:Yes it’s a scam.

Ivy League kids take 4 classes a semester to graduate.

State schools take 5 classes a semester to graduate.

Half the classes you are required to take to graduate have no rhyme or reason.

Colleges, universities, professors generally phone it in. Most professors don’t /can’t teach. They are there for research, students mostly teach themselves from the book or videos.

Depending on the teacher you could pass or fail any given class in the same university… there are zero standards.

No other business is run this way

So yes it’s a scam but it’s a scam that has proven to help you meet the right people and get the right jobs. And it’s fun.

I don't think "half" is accurate, but even with that, the whole point of a "liberal" with a small L, education, is to be exposed to new fields, ideas and perspectives.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I learned a ton and it lifted me out of abject poverty. It taught me the skills to perform and land a lucrative career. College changed my life trajectory.

Nobody said it doesn’t but could you have done that by moving to the same job take 1/2 the classes and work.

It wasn’t “college” that did that.

Plus how much did college cost you?

Right now it costs anywhere from $100K-$300K

Yes, it WAS college and more education that lifted me out of poverty. I need a PhD for my job.