Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And why call a scholar anyway if things ought to be obvious, and sometimes actually are obvious, if unpalatable?

Did someone here tell you to call a scholar for obvious points? A 48 page thread shows there may be some points that are not so obvious. Besides, scholars studied Islamic history and its more than just a college class,

Actually, the 48-page thread was about you and another Muslim poster committing mental acrobatics to try and prove, against all sense, that the obvious and simple Quranic verses on slavery, polygamy etc. - can somehow be interpreted to mean roses and chocolates, and those who don't believe it, should just call the scholar already. Because a pair of eyes just won't do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

Im going to have to point out that Farsi and Arabic are not similar languages at all. Farsi is a Indo-European language as is English. Arabic is a Semitic language. There is nothing similar about the two languages.

I specifically stated languages with a lot of Arabic words in them, not Semitic languages. Farsi is one of these. Even though Farsi is not Semitic it can be a relatively easy language for Arabic speakers to learn to read--the grammar is not very complicated and a very large percentage of the words are Arabic so it's pretty easy to get up to speed quickly.

I haven't gone the other way, but as so many Persian words are Arabic (and the script is very similar), it would be much easier for a Farsi speaker to learn Arabic than a Malaysian or an Indonesian.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

Im going to have to point out that Farsi and Arabic are not similar languages at all. Farsi is a Indo-European language as is English. Arabic is a Semitic language. There is nothing similar about the two languages.

Anonymous wrote:Arab countries and those that have languages with a lot of Arabic words in them like Farsi would teach the Quran in Arabic because it isn't such a stretch. The PP was asserting tha case is different in populous Muslim countries like Malaysia and Indonesia and questioned whether children are taught to actually read the Quran in Arabic or simply to memorize it as opera singers memorizes the words of songs in languages they don't understand.

For centuries, Roman Catholics attend services in Latin, a language the vast majority didn't understand but could say the responses in. But they were taught their religion--the basic principles and readings from the Bible--in their native language. Latin is a very beautiful language, but no one would contend that to understand the mass one needed to know Latin--translations were considered more than sufficient.

Anonymous wrote:
I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

Anonymous wrote:Should have been "literacy rate" not "illiteracy rate".

Anonymous wrote:
I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point I made was clear and simple. Children who learn to read the Quran learn it in Arabic only. Why is Afghanistan's literacy rate relevant to the what language the Quran is taught in?

It wasn't quite as simple, was it? You claimed it is incumbent on every Muslim to learn, understand and read the Quran in the original Arabic, or else their understanding is incomplete. You provided the example of children learning the Quran to support your claim. In light of this, it's highly relevant to point out that most children learning to read the Quran aren't learning the language of 7th century Quranic Arabic. In the majority, they are memorizing verses without understanding the language in which they are written. That's highly relevant for the context of your claim that a Muslim isn't educated until he or she read and understood the Quran in its original form.

We are back at this again. It is very simple. I am very sorry thats not the case for you. I will try to explain.

I am a product of Islamic school. I have family still living in several Muslim countries. Trust me. Almost all children learn Quran in Arabic, in the language it was revealed. And I have said this multiple times, they do learn the meaning of some suras, just not all suras because the Quran is hundreds of pages long. Devout Muslims continue to learn throughout their life. They take tafsir classes or study hadith. There are some who don't. But they should. Allah/God expects it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Im not the previous poster but my husband learned it in Iran.
In fact it was mandatory to learn at least 3 languages in school, Farsi, French (or another language of choice) and Arabic.
The study of the Qur'an was also part of the curriculum.
All this starting in elementary school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Jordan. He can recite Mu'allaqat as well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

The point I made was clear and simple. Children who learn to read the Quran learn it in Arabic only. Why is Afghanistan's literacy rate relevant to the what language the Quran is taught in?

It wasn't quite as simple, was it? You claimed it is incumbent on every Muslim to learn, understand and read the Quran in the original Arabic, or else their understanding is incomplete. You provided the example of children learning the Quran to support your claim. In light of this, it's highly relevant to point out that most children learning to read the Quran aren't learning the language of 7th century Quranic Arabic. In the majority, they are memorizing verses without understanding the language in which they are written. That's highly relevant for the context of your claim that a Muslim isn't educated until he or she read and understood the Quran in its original form.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even in Arab countries, thee are sizable numbers who couldn't possibly the read the Quran or anything else. One third of Yemen's population is illiterate. Many of those with some degree of literacy would not be able to understand the Arabic of the Quran, just as many of us have a very hard time really understanding the Canterbury Tales in its original version (or even Shakespeare for that matter).

And many Arabic speakers, to add insult to statistics, are not Muslim.

This is true, but some them like my DH actually excelled in recitation of the Koran in school. Christians in government schools are excused from religion, but my DH chose to stay with his friends. One of his Muslim friends told us about how he and his friends harassed the religion teacher by asking all kinds of irreverent questions he couldn't answer.

What country was your DH taught 7th century Arabic?