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Anonymous wrote:The Syrian church has a patriarchal line going all the way back to Peter. It has existed, with leadership, since Peter. The antiochian church is mentioned in the Gospel. WE have existed since Peter in Syria. It's not a fairy tale.

And the Roman Catholic hierarchy also claims a direct line from Saint Peter. Somebody’s wrong. Maybe they’re both wrong.

Funny how the story changes when you have an agenda.

It's funny how neither of you are actually informed about this. Peter is regarded, by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches as being the first Bishop of both Antioch and Rome. The traditional story is that he founded the church in Antioch, where he served as bishop, and then later traveled to Rome. There's no dispute between the churches over what happened, even if they do disagree about plenty of other things, including the significance of the fact that the Bishops of Rome follow from Peter.

Don’t like what you hear? Make your own religion. Make your own rules/beliefs. It’s all manufactured by men to address their own agenda.

A genuinely funny response to me pointing out that your assumptions about something are wrong.

Are you disputing that there are many many inconsistencies across the Christian religions?

No, I'm pointing out that you assumed that an inconsistency would exist where one does not. When that was explained to you, rather than letting yourself learn something, you fell back on some lazy cliches. That wouldn't be funny in and of itself, but when the cliches are about ignoring evidence and making up your own reality? That's funny.

I haven't been commenting about Peter - that was the other PP. The specifics around the various Peter stories are irrelevant. The point was the large number of inconsistencies - do you dispute that they exist?

Men with their own agenda make up their own rules about Christianity. The fact that we have so many different flavors of Christianity - thousands - points to the many different agendas.

Pope won't let you divorce? Start a new religion.

Don't want to have a middle man to god? Start a new religion.

Want to treat the bible literally? Start a new religion.

Rinse. Repeat.

It's all manufactured by men with their own agenda.

Straw man argument. None of this is relevant to the question posed in the first post. Since Jesus existed, we have a clear origin for Christianity. The sects of Christianity aren't in question here.

Continue reading down about the inconsistencies. It's inconsistent initially because we don't have direct sources - and then becomes increasingly inconsistent with each subsequent interpretation by other men with different agendas.

Everything written down - even from the start - was by men with an agenda.

This all brings to mind the words of Jesus, when his disciples asked him why he spoke to people in parables:


This is why I speak to them in parables:

Though seeing, they do not see;
Though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them."

But blessed are your eyes because they see,
and your ears because they hear.

For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Well at least that is how some guy maybe remembered it and who told it to some other guy and then eventually some other guy who knew how to write and then it got translated multiple times over the centuries adding some flourishes. But sure “he” said that.

That is true for all religous texts, including the Quran
Isn’t it a pity that they didn’t catch this all on recording devices or surveilance camera

Yes, it’s just the nature of oral stories about some random guys 2000 years ago. And why it’s “very likely” but not definite.

Oral history, not “oral stories.” You can believe whatever you want, but 99.9+% of academia and scholarship worldwide and millions of people have their own beliefs, too. You are waging a war that makes you look, in the words of Bart Erhman, foolish.

Religious guy absolutely believes Jesus existed. Shocker.

As another poster said it’s “very likely”. Let’s go with that consensus.

The weird “anonymous posters on a message board determine the entire history of the world by their posts” rides again. Nobody needs your direction to believe what they believe. How self important are you? There’s centuries of evidence, scholarship, study, debate, and volumes of work about this topic. Nobody is waiting for dcum to decide what the truth is about this issue. Bart is an atheist, and doesn’t believe Jesus was divine. But he absolutely joins 99.9% of historians and scholars to know Jesus was a real man in history that walked the earth.

What they “believe”, not “know”.

Bart, who is far from unbiased, said there is “pretty good evidence“. Ok, pretty good. Very likely.

Scholars, academics, and historians who deny the historicity of Jesus Christ are labeled fringe and deniers. Just as climate deniers, holocaust deniers, etc, are.

As long as you understand that, you and whoever you are speaking for, are fringe and considered conspiracy theorists by 99.9% of the scholars and historians in the western world.

I haven’t denied his existence at all. On the contrary, I’ve said it’s “very likely”.

It’s not so binary. It’s ok to not know absolutely 100%. Isn’t that part of your faith?

Historicity of Jesus is not determined by faith. Many of the scholars, historians, and academics who know Jesus was a man who walked the earth are atheists and agnostics.

Handful of them. Not “many”.

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Anonymous wrote:The Syrian church has a patriarchal line going all the way back to Peter. It has existed, with leadership, since Peter. The antiochian church is mentioned in the Gospel. WE have existed since Peter in Syria. It's not a fairy tale.

And the Roman Catholic hierarchy also claims a direct line from Saint Peter. Somebody’s wrong. Maybe they’re both wrong.

Funny how the story changes when you have an agenda.

It's funny how neither of you are actually informed about this. Peter is regarded, by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches as being the first Bishop of both Antioch and Rome. The traditional story is that he founded the church in Antioch, where he served as bishop, and then later traveled to Rome. There's no dispute between the churches over what happened, even if they do disagree about plenty of other things, including the significance of the fact that the Bishops of Rome follow from Peter.

Don’t like what you hear? Make your own religion. Make your own rules/beliefs. It’s all manufactured by men to address their own agenda.

A genuinely funny response to me pointing out that your assumptions about something are wrong.

Are you disputing that there are many many inconsistencies across the Christian religions?

No, I'm pointing out that you assumed that an inconsistency would exist where one does not. When that was explained to you, rather than letting yourself learn something, you fell back on some lazy cliches. That wouldn't be funny in and of itself, but when the cliches are about ignoring evidence and making up your own reality? That's funny.

I haven't been commenting about Peter - that was the other PP. The specifics around the various Peter stories are irrelevant. The point was the large number of inconsistencies - do you dispute that they exist?

Men with their own agenda make up their own rules about Christianity. The fact that we have so many different flavors of Christianity - thousands - points to the many different agendas.

Pope won't let you divorce? Start a new religion.

Don't want to have a middle man to god? Start a new religion.

Want to treat the bible literally? Start a new religion.

Rinse. Repeat.

It's all manufactured by men with their own agenda.

Straw man argument. None of this is relevant to the question posed in the first post. Since Jesus existed, we have a clear origin for Christianity. The sects of Christianity aren't in question here.

Continue reading down about the inconsistencies. It's inconsistent initially because we don't have direct sources - and then becomes increasingly inconsistent with each subsequent interpretation by other men with different agendas.

Everything written down - even from the start - was by men with an agenda.

This all brings to mind the words of Jesus, when his disciples asked him why he spoke to people in parables:


This is why I speak to them in parables:

Though seeing, they do not see;
Though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them."

But blessed are your eyes because they see,
and your ears because they hear.

For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Well at least that is how some guy maybe remembered it and who told it to some other guy and then eventually some other guy who knew how to write and then it got translated multiple times over the centuries adding some flourishes. But sure “he” said that.

That is true for all religous texts, including the Quran
Isn’t it a pity that they didn’t catch this all on recording devices or surveilance camera

Yes, it’s just the nature of oral stories about some random guys 2000 years ago. And why it’s “very likely” but not definite.

Oral history, not “oral stories.” You can believe whatever you want, but 99.9+% of academia and scholarship worldwide and millions of people have their own beliefs, too. You are waging a war that makes you look, in the words of Bart Erhman, foolish.

Religious guy absolutely believes Jesus existed. Shocker.

As another poster said it’s “very likely”. Let’s go with that consensus.

The weird “anonymous posters on a message board determine the entire history of the world by their posts” rides again. Nobody needs your direction to believe what they believe. How self important are you? There’s centuries of evidence, scholarship, study, debate, and volumes of work about this topic. Nobody is waiting for dcum to decide what the truth is about this issue. Bart is an atheist, and doesn’t believe Jesus was divine. But he absolutely joins 99.9% of historians and scholars to know Jesus was a real man in history that walked the earth.

What they “believe”, not “know”.

Bart, who is far from unbiased, said there is “pretty good evidence“. Ok, pretty good. Very likely.

Scholars, academics, and historians who deny the historicity of Jesus Christ are labeled fringe and deniers. Just as climate deniers, holocaust deniers, etc, are.

As long as you understand that, you and whoever you are speaking for, are fringe and considered conspiracy theorists by 99.9% of the scholars and historians in the western world.

I haven’t denied his existence at all. On the contrary, I’ve said it’s “very likely”.

It’s not so binary. It’s ok to not know absolutely 100%. Isn’t that part of your faith?

Historicity of Jesus is not determined by faith. Many of the scholars, historians, and academics who know Jesus was a man who walked the earth are atheists and agnostics.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

Where is your evidence? Of what you believe?

My beliefs are based on a lack of unbiased, contemporaneous evidence. Without that, as PP said, most of us think it’s “very likely” he existed.

I’m the pp who said “very likely.” You keep quoting me as if I meant something like 60% likelihood. That’s not at all what I meant. To prevent you from continuing to misuse my post, I’m clarifying it to “extremely likely,” i.e. close to 100%.

As a side note, it’s weird that you’ve glommed onto a single post from an anonymous person on the interwebs (my post) as your “truth.” At the same time, you dismiss the hundreds of real scholars who have studied ancient languages and sources, including skeptics like Ehrman. I’ve read some of those scholars (unlike you), I respect them, and that’s why my “very” was intended to convey near-100% certainty. Please stop misusing my post.

I’ve been saying it’s very likely long before your post.

Your post and the ones following felt like consensus on this thread. That’s why I keep referring to it.

Yes, we don’t know 100%. Totally agree.

You don’t know and don’t speak for anyone but yourself.

We know Jesus existed. You are a fringe denier.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?

There's no such thing as an "unbiased historian," and it's very hard to take seriously anyone who thinks there is.

So all of recorded history is untrue?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?

There's no such thing as an "unbiased historian," and it's very hard to take seriously anyone who thinks there is.

So all of recorded history is untrue?

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?

There's no such thing as an "unbiased historian," and it's very hard to take seriously anyone who thinks there is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?

Bart Denton Ehrman[a] (born 1955) is an American New Testament scholar focusing on textual criticism of the New Testament, the historical Jesus, and the origins and development of early Christianity. He has written and edited 30 books, including three college textbooks. He has also authored six New York Times bestsellers. He is the James A. Gray Distinguished Professor of Religious Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

He subsequently left evangelicalism and returned to the Episcopal Church, where he remained a liberal Christian for 15 years, but later became an agnostic atheist after struggling with the philosophical problems of evil and suffering.[1][2][6]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

Born on October 5, 1955, Ehrman grew up in Lawrence, Kansas, and attended Lawrence High School, where he was on the state champion debate team in 1973. He began studying the Bible, biblical theology, and biblical languages at Moody Bible Institute,[1] where he earned the school's three-year diploma in 1976.[2] He is a 1978 graduate of Wheaton College in Illinois, where he received his bachelor's degree. He received his PhD (in 1985) and MDiv from Princeton Theological Seminary, where he studied textual criticism of the Bible, development of the New Testament canon and New Testament apocrypha under Bruce Metzger. Both baccalaureate and doctorate were conferred magna cum laude.[3]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?

There's no such thing as an "unbiased historian," and it's very hard to take seriously anyone who thinks there is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

Where is your evidence? Of what you believe?

My beliefs are based on a lack of unbiased, contemporaneous evidence. Without that, as PP said, most of us think it’s “very likely” he existed.

I’m the pp who said “very likely.” You keep quoting me as if I meant something like 60% likelihood. That’s not at all what I meant. To prevent you from continuing to misuse my post, I’m clarifying it to “extremely likely,” i.e. close to 100%.

As a side note, it’s weird that you’ve glommed onto a single post from an anonymous person on the interwebs (my post) as your “truth.” At the same time, you dismiss the hundreds of real scholars who have studied ancient languages and sources, including skeptics like Ehrman. I’ve read some of those scholars (unlike you), I respect them, and that’s why my “very” was intended to convey near-100% certainty. Please stop misusing my post.

I’ve been saying it’s very likely long before your post.

Your post and the ones following felt like consensus on this thread. That’s why I keep referring to it.

Yes, we don’t know 100%. Totally agree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Syrian church has a patriarchal line going all the way back to Peter. It has existed, with leadership, since Peter. The antiochian church is mentioned in the Gospel. WE have existed since Peter in Syria. It's not a fairy tale.

And the Roman Catholic hierarchy also claims a direct line from Saint Peter. Somebody’s wrong. Maybe they’re both wrong.

Funny how the story changes when you have an agenda.

It's funny how neither of you are actually informed about this. Peter is regarded, by the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox churches as being the first Bishop of both Antioch and Rome. The traditional story is that he founded the church in Antioch, where he served as bishop, and then later traveled to Rome. There's no dispute between the churches over what happened, even if they do disagree about plenty of other things, including the significance of the fact that the Bishops of Rome follow from Peter.

Don’t like what you hear? Make your own religion. Make your own rules/beliefs. It’s all manufactured by men to address their own agenda.

A genuinely funny response to me pointing out that your assumptions about something are wrong.

Are you disputing that there are many many inconsistencies across the Christian religions?

No, I'm pointing out that you assumed that an inconsistency would exist where one does not. When that was explained to you, rather than letting yourself learn something, you fell back on some lazy cliches. That wouldn't be funny in and of itself, but when the cliches are about ignoring evidence and making up your own reality? That's funny.

I haven't been commenting about Peter - that was the other PP. The specifics around the various Peter stories are irrelevant. The point was the large number of inconsistencies - do you dispute that they exist?

Men with their own agenda make up their own rules about Christianity. The fact that we have so many different flavors of Christianity - thousands - points to the many different agendas.

Pope won't let you divorce? Start a new religion.

Don't want to have a middle man to god? Start a new religion.

Want to treat the bible literally? Start a new religion.

Rinse. Repeat.

It's all manufactured by men with their own agenda.

Straw man argument. None of this is relevant to the question posed in the first post. Since Jesus existed, we have a clear origin for Christianity. The sects of Christianity aren't in question here.

Continue reading down about the inconsistencies. It's inconsistent initially because we don't have direct sources - and then becomes increasingly inconsistent with each subsequent interpretation by other men with different agendas.

Everything written down - even from the start - was by men with an agenda.

This all brings to mind the words of Jesus, when his disciples asked him why he spoke to people in parables:


This is why I speak to them in parables:

Though seeing, they do not see;
Though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

"You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

For this people’s heart has become calloused;
they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
hear with their ears,
understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them."

But blessed are your eyes because they see,
and your ears because they hear.

For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.

Well at least that is how some guy maybe remembered it and who told it to some other guy and then eventually some other guy who knew how to write and then it got translated multiple times over the centuries adding some flourishes. But sure “he” said that.

That is true for all religous texts, including the Quran
Isn’t it a pity that they didn’t catch this all on recording devices or surveilance camera

Yes, it’s just the nature of oral stories about some random guys 2000 years ago. And why it’s “very likely” but not definite.

Oral history, not “oral stories.” You can believe whatever you want, but 99.9+% of academia and scholarship worldwide and millions of people have their own beliefs, too. You are waging a war that makes you look, in the words of Bart Erhman, foolish.

Religious guy absolutely believes Jesus existed. Shocker.

As another poster said it’s “very likely”. Let’s go with that consensus.

The weird “anonymous posters on a message board determine the entire history of the world by their posts” rides again. Nobody needs your direction to believe what they believe. How self important are you? There’s centuries of evidence, scholarship, study, debate, and volumes of work about this topic. Nobody is waiting for dcum to decide what the truth is about this issue. Bart is an atheist, and doesn’t believe Jesus was divine. But he absolutely joins 99.9% of historians and scholars to know Jesus was a real man in history that walked the earth.

What they “believe”, not “know”.

Bart, who is far from unbiased, said there is “pretty good evidence“. Ok, pretty good. Very likely.

Scholars, academics, and historians who deny the historicity of Jesus Christ are labeled fringe and deniers. Just as climate deniers, holocaust deniers, etc, are.

As long as you understand that, you and whoever you are speaking for, are fringe and considered conspiracy theorists by 99.9% of the scholars and historians in the western world.

I haven’t denied his existence at all. On the contrary, I’ve said it’s “very likely”.

It’s not so binary. It’s ok to not know absolutely 100%. Isn’t that part of your faith?

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Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

Where is your evidence? Of what you believe?

My beliefs are based on a lack of unbiased, contemporaneous evidence. Without that, as PP said, most of us think it’s “very likely” he existed.

I’m the pp who said “very likely.” You keep quoting me as if I meant something like 60% likelihood. That’s not at all what I meant. To prevent you from continuing to misuse my post, I’m clarifying it to “extremely likely,” i.e. close to 100%.

As a side note, it’s weird that you’ve glommed onto a single post from an anonymous person on the interwebs (my post) as your “truth.” At the same time, you dismiss the hundreds of real scholars who have studied ancient languages and sources, including skeptics like Ehrman. I’ve read some of those scholars (unlike you), I respect them, and that’s why my “very” was intended to convey near-100% certainty. Please stop misusing my post.

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Anonymous wrote:We have contemporaneous witness written account, we have written account of a witness to worshippers only a few decades later, not even a lifetime later, and we still have the same ethnic group in Syria practicing Christianity since the founding of that church was documented in the Gospels, as well as the lineage of patriarchs of the Syrian church - its on Wikipedia. Not sure what the heck else would convince a devils advocate here

+1

I am glad this topic came up, though. It’s actually amazing, all the evidence there is.

I guess some people just blindly believe what they are told is “evidence”.

I don’t blindly believe anything in life. I have the ability to read and research and think. Why do you think everyone is blindly accepting and ignorant? You think every historian and scholar in the western world is blind, has the same wrong agenda, etc? Get over yourself. Where is your evidence they are all wrong? What are your qualifications to judge everyone wrong but you?

Many people just believe what they what to believe. Or, for most Christians, just what they are told to believe. How many actually go examine “evidence”? Not many.

What % of these people also believe that he rose from the dead?

At most - for people who aren’t blinded by faith - they believe it’s “very likely” he existed. That’s just how it is without unbiased, contemporaneous evidence.

People don’t like uncertainty. That part of why we have religion in the first place - to explain the unknown.

None of your comment applies to 99.9% of the scholars, historians, and academics in the entire western world.

Where do you pull the 99.9%?

Why just the western world?

He’s a religious studies guy. Not an unbiased historian.

Why just the western world? Does the evidence hold up to unbiased scrutiny?