Anonymous wrote:Kudos to Jews and Asians and everyone else who has done well in America despite difficulties and prejudice and discrimination. The key thing for many of them was getting out of agricultural and menial labor and being able to own property and own businesses or enter professions that were not controlled by white patronage and have access to good education. You need to understand that it was different for black Americans. Long after slavery ended, the South was an oppressive police state that denied them education, freedom of movement, property rights, voting rights, and really every basic right. Even if they did move from the fields, they were laborers and menial servants. They were only allowed to live where white people did not want to live and only allowed to have jobs working for white people. A black middle class did develop in some cities and states but even they had to be careful to stay in their place. Pretty much every political, legal, financial institution in the U.S. was dedicated to keeping blacks in their place.

Before desegregation blacks could not patronize white businesses, so many black businesses emerged to serve the population. People made it work. Where are these communities now?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kudos to Jews and Asians and everyone else who has done well in America despite difficulties and prejudice and discrimination. The key thing for many of them was getting out of agricultural and menial labor and being able to own property and own businesses or enter professions that were not controlled by white patronage and have access to good education. You need to understand that it was different for black Americans. Long after slavery ended, the South was an oppressive police state that denied them education, freedom of movement, property rights, voting rights, and really every basic right. Even if they did move from the fields, they were laborers and menial servants. They were only allowed to live where white people did not want to live and only allowed to have jobs working for white people. A black middle class did develop in some cities and states but even they had to be careful to stay in their place. Pretty much every political, legal, financial institution in the U.S. was dedicated to keeping blacks in their place.

Very well said but it’s falling on deaf ears. This has been explained countless times on DCUM but has never been acknowledged.

That’s a great history lesson but the question posed above was if there are remaining systemic barriers to blacks progressing then why are black immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean and elsewhere flourishing whilst African-Americans seem to be going backwards?

It is just not true that blacks are going backwards. Black women, in particular, are doing much, much better than ever, so much so that all the racists are upset that, with less discrimination today, so many of them are getting jobs in the government and so many are going to college. This whole thread is about keeping black women in their place.

Still OP.

Reflecting on my original proposal, I would make two adjustments, one based on the more recent impact of Jim Crow laws.

1) Southern states with Jim Crow laws up until the 1960's would be required to give "bonus" points to black kids. How this would work, I don't know....but since it would come at the expense of poor whites, there would have to be a time limit - say, 15 years or so.

2) In all states, we could extend the reach - instead of the top 5% getting AA "points," it could be the top 10%. But since money is finite, only the top 5% get the free schooling. So, two tiers.

The beauty of this is that students who enter under AA are not suspect - that they only got in because of their skin color. Now getting in would be a mark of achievement - it means they were such excellent stidents, relative to their peers, that they earned they way to the benefit.

Finally, in order to make this fully race-neutral, there's no need to call it affirmative action. We could call them "National Achievement Scholarships."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Kudos to Jews and Asians and everyone else who has done well in America despite difficulties and prejudice and discrimination. The key thing for many of them was getting out of agricultural and menial labor and being able to own property and own businesses or enter professions that were not controlled by white patronage and have access to good education. You need to understand that it was different for black Americans. Long after slavery ended, the South was an oppressive police state that denied them education, freedom of movement, property rights, voting rights, and really every basic right. Even if they did move from the fields, they were laborers and menial servants. They were only allowed to live where white people did not want to live and only allowed to have jobs working for white people. A black middle class did develop in some cities and states but even they had to be careful to stay in their place. Pretty much every political, legal, financial institution in the U.S. was dedicated to keeping blacks in their place.

Very well said but it’s falling on deaf ears. This has been explained countless times on DCUM but has never been acknowledged.

That’s a great history lesson but the question posed above was if there are remaining systemic barriers to blacks progressing then why are black immigrants from Africa, the Caribbean and elsewhere flourishing whilst African-Americans seem to be going backwards?

Anonymous wrote:Kudos to Jews and Asians and everyone else who has done well in America despite difficulties and prejudice and discrimination. The key thing for many of them was getting out of agricultural and menial labor and being able to own property and own businesses or enter professions that were not controlled by white patronage and have access to good education. You need to understand that it was different for black Americans. Long after slavery ended, the South was an oppressive police state that denied them education, freedom of movement, property rights, voting rights, and really every basic right. Even if they did move from the fields, they were laborers and menial servants. They were only allowed to live where white people did not want to live and only allowed to have jobs working for white people. A black middle class did develop in some cities and states but even they had to be careful to stay in their place. Pretty much every political, legal, financial institution in the U.S. was dedicated to keeping blacks in their place.

OP here. OK, so they were day laborers that first generation. I feel very sorry for them and what they had to go through, and no doubt slavery was reprehensible. But that was 160 years ago.

We are talking about NOW. There are many opportunities for black kids - and there has been at least the last 40 or so years In my college in the NE, I'd estimate that close to 15% of students were black, and it was an expensive private institution. (I graduated in 1981.)

1) First, my "top 5% in each school" proposal not only gives the high-achieving blacks the benefit of AA, it actually would pay their way their way to a four-year degree.

2) The relatively high income cut-off I suggested ($100k) assures that not only would poor blacks qualify, but those from the straight middle-class.

3) The only ones who would "lose" under this proposal are blacks from affluent homes. And remember, it doesn't mean they don't go to college. It just means they don't get a "bump up" based on skin color, given that they grew up in comfort, and that they need to compete with their own cohort of children from middle class homes.

4) I've heard one poster say that there is no evidence that middle-class blacks get any benefit of AA, and where's my proof, etc., but let's even assume that's correct and that middle-class blacks do not gain. Then why the big objection to excluding them from AA, given that they don't benefit anyway?

5) Finally, while it's true that some black middle-class students would have to compete on their own merits, the proposal now allows some of the AA "slots" to go to poor whites. There have been countless comments about white trash, poor whites - even those with excellent grades - should go to community college, and so forth.

I still maintain that my race-neutral proposal is a good one, giving a leg up to those most deserving - whom I say are kids of all colors who have been disadvantages by a poor family background.

Anonymous wrote:Kudos to Jews and Asians and everyone else who has done well in America despite difficulties and prejudice and discrimination. The key thing for many of them was getting out of agricultural and menial labor and being able to own property and own businesses or enter professions that were not controlled by white patronage and have access to good education. You need to understand that it was different for black Americans. Long after slavery ended, the South was an oppressive police state that denied them education, freedom of movement, property rights, voting rights, and really every basic right. Even if they did move from the fields, they were laborers and menial servants. They were only allowed to live where white people did not want to live and only allowed to have jobs working for white people. A black middle class did develop in some cities and states but even they had to be careful to stay in their place. Pretty much every political, legal, financial institution in the U.S. was dedicated to keeping blacks in their place.

Very well said but it’s falling on deaf ears. This has been explained countless times on DCUM but has never been acknowledged.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Problem is, folks, that we’re talking about the white man’s structurally racist education system. Let’s create something else.

Asians seem to succeed under it.

Then again a person with high future time orientation and high impulse control tends to do better in an academic setting. Those attributes aren't evenly distributed across all populations.

The dumb Asians don’t make it to the US, at least among those that emigrated within the last 50 years or so. Even if they did not have a formal education, they had streets smarts or entrepreneurial talents.

I grew up in Southern California and knew a lot of Japanese and Chinese-Americans who could trace their lineage in the US back to the late 1800s. Those kids had all the same issues you see in white and black populations that have been in the US forever: drug abuse, lack of focus on the education, obsession with pop culture/music/sports ahead of studying, truancy, minor crime, etc. Tons of Asian gangs in California, many of whom have lived in the US for a couple generations.

So when you say “Asians have succeeded!” you’re typically talking about a group with a high degree of selection bias. They had to have the money, intelligence, and/or social capital to get to the US in the 20th century. They are dissimilar from those they left behind in their home countries.

No, you are absolutely incorrect. Most of the Asian immigrants in the last 40 years or so (Asians were not allowed to come until the late 1960s) came under the family based immigrant visas not skilled (bachelors degrees or higher) employment based immigrant visas or investor visas. In addition, many refugees from SE Asian countries who came in 1970s and 1980s were definitely not highly educated or had wealth. Many also came under "unskilled worker" category of the employment based immigration and then used family based immigrant visas once they obtained citizenship.

So no, it's absolutely false that most Asian immigrants to US in the last 40-50 years had "money, intelligence, and/or social capital". I would say that most Asians actually go into the opposite category.

y
By that same token, what about the Jews? They certainly had no social capital or money when they arrived en mass veteen 1880 and 1920. They are mostly dirt-poor peasants from Easfern Europe. A generation later their kids were college graduates, and a ge erstion after that, they were doctors and lawyers.

Shouldn’t you all be on 4chan or 8chan or wherever it is that you people go?

Yes, we know you think black people suck. Maybe you even think all “POC” suck, including white Hispanics. Maybe even women.

Why do you insist on demonstrating that you are DBs again and again and again? We already know that.

Dp

If a people who have been oppressed since ancient Egypt and we're nearly genocided away into history can come here and succeed despite 3000 years of being persecuted, anyone can.

Yes, we know there are a few Jewish people on here who hate black people. 4Chan is perfect for you, too!

The only one demonstrating any sort of inferiority is you, with your lame ad hominem slurs and inability to engage in reasoned discourse.

I know, right? It's like nobody is allowed to say anything positive about a group of people, such as Asians or Jews, who have admirable traits and behaviors that lead to success. Somehow, that's viewed as being racist.

+1

(Some) Americans are crazy.

On a thread about eliminating affirmative action for black people?

Yeah, it’s racist. It’s the exact definition of racism. Go start a new thread.

“Definition of racism
1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Problem is, folks, that we’re talking about the white man’s structurally racist education system. Let’s create something else.

Asians seem to succeed under it.

Then again a person with high future time orientation and high impulse control tends to do better in an academic setting. Those attributes aren't evenly distributed across all populations.

The dumb Asians don’t make it to the US, at least among those that emigrated within the last 50 years or so. Even if they did not have a formal education, they had streets smarts or entrepreneurial talents.

I grew up in Southern California and knew a lot of Japanese and Chinese-Americans who could trace their lineage in the US back to the late 1800s. Those kids had all the same issues you see in white and black populations that have been in the US forever: drug abuse, lack of focus on the education, obsession with pop culture/music/sports ahead of studying, truancy, minor crime, etc. Tons of Asian gangs in California, many of whom have lived in the US for a couple generations.

So when you say “Asians have succeeded!” you’re typically talking about a group with a high degree of selection bias. They had to have the money, intelligence, and/or social capital to get to the US in the 20th century. They are dissimilar from those they left behind in their home countries.

No, you are absolutely incorrect. Most of the Asian immigrants in the last 40 years or so (Asians were not allowed to come until the late 1960s) came under the family based immigrant visas not skilled (bachelors degrees or higher) employment based immigrant visas or investor visas. In addition, many refugees from SE Asian countries who came in 1970s and 1980s were definitely not highly educated or had wealth. Many also came under "unskilled worker" category of the employment based immigration and then used family based immigrant visas once they obtained citizenship.

So no, it's absolutely false that most Asian immigrants to US in the last 40-50 years had "money, intelligence, and/or social capital". I would say that most Asians actually go into the opposite category.

y
By that same token, what about the Jews? They certainly had no social capital or money when they arrived en mass veteen 1880 and 1920. They are mostly dirt-poor peasants from Easfern Europe. A generation later their kids were college graduates, and a ge erstion after that, they were doctors and lawyers.

Shouldn’t you all be on 4chan or 8chan or wherever it is that you people go?

Yes, we know you think black people suck. Maybe you even think all “POC” suck, including white Hispanics. Maybe even women.

Why do you insist on demonstrating that you are DBs again and again and again? We already know that.

Dp

If a people who have been oppressed since ancient Egypt and we're nearly genocided away into history can come here and succeed despite 3000 years of being persecuted, anyone can.

Yes, we know there are a few Jewish people on here who hate black people. 4Chan is perfect for you, too!

So why can they succeed when others fail?

AA of Caribbean descent/immigrant origin do well, why might that be?

Please explain why they succeed when others fail.

Kudos to Jews and Asians and everyone else who has done well in America despite difficulties and prejudice and discrimination. The key thing for many of them was getting out of agricultural and menial labor and being able to own property and own businesses or enter professions that were not controlled by white patronage and have access to good education. You need to understand that it was different for black Americans. Long after slavery ended, the South was an oppressive police state that denied them education, freedom of movement, property rights, voting rights, and really every basic right. Even if they did move from the fields, they were laborers and menial servants. They were only allowed to live where white people did not want to live and only allowed to have jobs working for white people. A black middle class did develop in some cities and states but even they had to be careful to stay in their place. Pretty much every political, legal, financial institution in the U.S. was dedicated to keeping blacks in their place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Problem is, folks, that we’re talking about the white man’s structurally racist education system. Let’s create something else.

Asians seem to succeed under it.

Then again a person with high future time orientation and high impulse control tends to do better in an academic setting. Those attributes aren't evenly distributed across all populations.

The dumb Asians don’t make it to the US, at least among those that emigrated within the last 50 years or so. Even if they did not have a formal education, they had streets smarts or entrepreneurial talents.

I grew up in Southern California and knew a lot of Japanese and Chinese-Americans who could trace their lineage in the US back to the late 1800s. Those kids had all the same issues you see in white and black populations that have been in the US forever: drug abuse, lack of focus on the education, obsession with pop culture/music/sports ahead of studying, truancy, minor crime, etc. Tons of Asian gangs in California, many of whom have lived in the US for a couple generations.

So when you say “Asians have succeeded!” you’re typically talking about a group with a high degree of selection bias. They had to have the money, intelligence, and/or social capital to get to the US in the 20th century. They are dissimilar from those they left behind in their home countries.

No, you are absolutely incorrect. Most of the Asian immigrants in the last 40 years or so (Asians were not allowed to come until the late 1960s) came under the family based immigrant visas not skilled (bachelors degrees or higher) employment based immigrant visas or investor visas. In addition, many refugees from SE Asian countries who came in 1970s and 1980s were definitely not highly educated or had wealth. Many also came under "unskilled worker" category of the employment based immigration and then used family based immigrant visas once they obtained citizenship.

So no, it's absolutely false that most Asian immigrants to US in the last 40-50 years had "money, intelligence, and/or social capital". I would say that most Asians actually go into the opposite category.

y
By that same token, what about the Jews? They certainly had no social capital or money when they arrived en mass veteen 1880 and 1920. They are mostly dirt-poor peasants from Easfern Europe. A generation later their kids were college graduates, and a ge erstion after that, they were doctors and lawyers.

Shouldn’t you all be on 4chan or 8chan or wherever it is that you people go?

Yes, we know you think black people suck. Maybe you even think all “POC” suck, including white Hispanics. Maybe even women.

Why do you insist on demonstrating that you are DBs again and again and again? We already know that.

Dp

If a people who have been oppressed since ancient Egypt and we're nearly genocided away into history can come here and succeed despite 3000 years of being persecuted, anyone can.

Yes, we know there are a few Jewish people on here who hate black people. 4Chan is perfect for you, too!

The only one demonstrating any sort of inferiority is you, with your lame ad hominem slurs and inability to engage in reasoned discourse.

I know, right? It's like nobody is allowed to say anything positive about a group of people, such as Asians or Jews, who have admirable traits and behaviors that lead to success. Somehow, that's viewed as being racist.

+1

(Some) Americans are crazy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Problem is, folks, that we’re talking about the white man’s structurally racist education system. Let’s create something else.

Asians seem to succeed under it.

Then again a person with high future time orientation and high impulse control tends to do better in an academic setting. Those attributes aren't evenly distributed across all populations.

The dumb Asians don’t make it to the US, at least among those that emigrated within the last 50 years or so. Even if they did not have a formal education, they had streets smarts or entrepreneurial talents.

I grew up in Southern California and knew a lot of Japanese and Chinese-Americans who could trace their lineage in the US back to the late 1800s. Those kids had all the same issues you see in white and black populations that have been in the US forever: drug abuse, lack of focus on the education, obsession with pop culture/music/sports ahead of studying, truancy, minor crime, etc. Tons of Asian gangs in California, many of whom have lived in the US for a couple generations.

So when you say “Asians have succeeded!” you’re typically talking about a group with a high degree of selection bias. They had to have the money, intelligence, and/or social capital to get to the US in the 20th century. They are dissimilar from those they left behind in their home countries.

No, you are absolutely incorrect. Most of the Asian immigrants in the last 40 years or so (Asians were not allowed to come until the late 1960s) came under the family based immigrant visas not skilled (bachelors degrees or higher) employment based immigrant visas or investor visas. In addition, many refugees from SE Asian countries who came in 1970s and 1980s were definitely not highly educated or had wealth. Many also came under "unskilled worker" category of the employment based immigration and then used family based immigrant visas once they obtained citizenship.

So no, it's absolutely false that most Asian immigrants to US in the last 40-50 years had "money, intelligence, and/or social capital". I would say that most Asians actually go into the opposite category.

y
By that same token, what about the Jews? They certainly had no social capital or money when they arrived en mass veteen 1880 and 1920. They are mostly dirt-poor peasants from Easfern Europe. A generation later their kids were college graduates, and a ge erstion after that, they were doctors and lawyers.

Shouldn’t you all be on 4chan or 8chan or wherever it is that you people go?

Yes, we know you think black people suck. Maybe you even think all “POC” suck, including white Hispanics. Maybe even women.

Why do you insist on demonstrating that you are DBs again and again and again? We already know that.

Dp

If a people who have been oppressed since ancient Egypt and we're nearly genocided away into history can come here and succeed despite 3000 years of being persecuted, anyone can.

Yes, we know there are a few Jewish people on here who hate black people. 4Chan is perfect for you, too!

The only one demonstrating any sort of inferiority is you, with your lame ad hominem slurs and inability to engage in reasoned discourse.

I know, right? It's like nobody is allowed to say anything positive about a group of people, such as Asians or Jews, who have admirable traits and behaviors that lead to success. Somehow, that's viewed as being racist.