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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Repeat after me: other people’s gender identity is none of my business and I don’t need to police it. It’s literally not up to you decide when a person can or should transition

x1 million

In our society we protect children. They’re not allowed to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, get a tattoo, go to a tanning salon. Yet we’re allowing them to surgically alter their bodies and take hormones. A 4000% increase in girls seeking treatment for gender issues is a cause for serious concern. We should be looking at why so many girls want to opt out of womanhood and boys opt out of manhood. It’s not out of line to raise the alarm over this.

You’re very misinformed. Most teens who transition do not have any type of surgery. The medication they take essentially puts hormonal development “on pause” to allow them time to transition or, if necessary, transition back if they decide to do that. Coming off the medication would continue development as usual. They’re not “opting out” of anything - they are opting into living life that is true to who they are. your faux concern is way off base.

The drugs used to “pause” puberty are not without harm. They can cause a lifetime of issues related to bone loss, including brittle bones and painful joints. https://khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

There are minors getting hormones and “top surgery”. They’re being given medications rather than the mental heath care they really need. Here’s one psychiatrist’s story. https://quillette.com/2017/10/06/misunderstanding-new-kind-gender-dysphoria/

Look at Jazz Jennings, arguably the poster child for transitioning as a minor. At the age of 19, Jazz has never experienced an orgasm. She has a vagina which has to be dilated daily, which allows her to participate in a sex act she won’t derive pleasure from. She’s been sterilized. She’ll never have children of her own. All this because at the age of 2, she was a little boy who liked dresses and the color purple, and some say was emulating a beloved older sister.

She has bodily autonomy. You don't get a say in what she (and her family and doctors) decide to do with her body.

But women don't get to say who they allow access to their bodies without being labeled transphobic.(see link in this thread). Lesbians are cancelled, harassed, and receive death threats for saying they don't want to have sex with natal men. And I am sure you agree with that.

You absolutely, 100% do not truly care about bodily autonomy. I think you are lying.

What page was that? I haven’t read all of the early pages.

You are making a lot of assumptions about me. Why is that?

This article:

https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

I fully support anti-discrimination, use of preferred gender, etc. But articles like this are appalling. NOBODY gets to decide who gets access to my body or any other person's body for me. This article is rape culture straight up. And it is against bodily autonomy.

If you support this author, if you think she is right, you cannot simultaneously say you support bodily autonomy.

It’s complicated - people are attracted to certain looks or characteristics.

I read her op-ed as “keep an open mind” and I don’t really see how you connect that to “rape culture”. Can you explain?

This is full blown rape culture because in addition to the disturbing quotes from the lesbians above (and the horrific history of conversation therapy and forced sex with men for lesbians and women in general), the author does NOT just say keep an open mind but goes further to say that to not want to sleep with transmen/women is transphobic, e.g. a slur. You are ignoring that because you are okay with rape culture, but it is a horrific statement that would only be made by someone used to demanding and taking from other people's bodies.

She talks about consent in this article as though she's putting air quotes around the word. If you had changed trans to "incel" in this article, there would literally be no change to the article. If incel was used instead, would you finally see the issue? Or should incels also get access to women's bodies? Should women have to keep an open mind about them?

Anonymous wrote:Historically, people have been able to advocate for women's rights even though the term "women" has included women who have had hysterectomies (and therefore no longer menstruate), women who have gone through menopause, women who have stopped menstruating due to chemo/PCOS/other medical issues, and women who never menstruated. Why would acknowledging that transwomen are women be any different?

JKR aside- the problem isn't with the word women applying to transwomen- the problem is that tranwomen don't want to extend the word women to people who menstruate, they want the word women to only apply to the gender women and not the biological sex. Women who also get periods think that they should be allowed to use the word women need mentrual products and that women who are post menopausal, women who have penises nd women who have had hysterectomies should just continue to say- oh that doesn't apply to me in the way that women who have had their uteruses removed and one through menopause or have not yet had their periods have been doing. the problem is that b/c transwomen have had to go through so much trauma to prove that th4y are women- they are more sensitive to being excluded from a conversation than say a woman who has her her uterus removed. The whole discussion is more nuanced than just shouting terf terf or he more hurtful- transowmen aren't women. Transwomen are women as far as gender is concerned- they just want to take away the word women and female from discussions of sex and biology and many women/females object to that. they want to continue using the same word. maybe it would be better to use the word person in advocating for mentrual products and say people need pads/tampons/maternal careened for people who reproduce through ejaculation can just assume this doesn't apply to them directly?

Anonymous wrote:The secular left is quickly finding out, in a world where critical theory increasingly drives how the world is conceptualized, that last week's victim can become this week's oppressor.

Yup. And that the mob comes for all of us, no matter how woke we are this week.

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Do we know the potential long term effects for hormone treatments in adolescence?

Do we know the potential long-term effects for infertility medications/treatments? New cancer treatments? New coronavirus vaccines/treatments?

Patients work with the doctors to weigh treatment risks for all sorts of serious medical issues.

Why focus on this particular one?

Because these are children. And because doctors are influenced by social pressure. And doctors have been influenced by social pressure here.

You think doctors are going to violate their Hippocratic oath over “social pressure”.

So you know more than the families and their doctors?

Ven diagram poster here who is primarily concerned with language.

I think both of you on this argument are being obtuse. The answer clearly lies in the middle.

Children should not be allowed to physically alter their bodies without extensive consultation and evaluation. But for the most part that is what happens. This is a fabricated problem. Trans children getting not enough medical counseling and support is a far greater problem then getting too much intervention. There are, assuredly, outliers but overall I think the bar to transition is quite high and involves many steps over years. You do not tell your mom you are trans in January and become a boy/girl by June. It just doesn’t happen that way and it’s disingenuous to say it does. These kids are frequently very depressed and/or confused as they work through this and we should actually trust doctors and parents to work together while certainly shining a spotlight on abuse and malpractice where it happens.

I generally agree with JKR and with this. I know 2 children who are transitioning at some level. For both them this consists of affirming their choices in clothing, personal styles, names, and pronouns but perhaps at some point it will include medicine. For children, gender affirmation is life and death, sometimes that includes using medication with tradeoffs.

In the UK, where JKR lives, there absolutely is an overdiagnosis of gender issues and a rush to put kids on hormones. And there are reports of it happening here too. Pp’s claim it’s not true doesn’t match reports from the ground, and the efforts of people to eliminate “gate-keeping”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/12/12/childrens-transgender-clinic-hit-35-resignations-three-years/

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

Nobody has talked about who anyone has sex with that I have seen. We are talking about identity.

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Anonymous wrote:Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

I’m sorry you have so much trouble reading.

No, that's exactly what it says. That you shouldn't judge people by their bodies because we choose our gender.

Look, you choose to be masc or fem in the social/behavioral sense but there are aspects of gender that are biological. Like having a penis or a vagina. I can respect that you identify so much with femininity that you feel more comfortable living as a woman. But that doesn't make your penis something other than a penis. Also, it's not an extreme view. While men may be more sexually fluid than women regarding attraction to genitals, that doesn't make women less entitled to their decision not to have sex with people with penises.

Are you talking about the article or comments on this thread?

The comments on this thread.

I’ll have to go back and read the beginning of the thread. I haven’t seen this in the last 20+ pages or so.

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Anonymous wrote:Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

I’m sorry you have so much trouble reading.

No, that's exactly what it says. That you shouldn't judge people by their bodies because we choose our gender.

Look, you choose to be masc or fem in the social/behavioral sense but there are aspects of gender that are biological. Like having a penis or a vagina. I can respect that you identify so much with femininity that you feel more comfortable living as a woman. But that doesn't make your penis something other than a penis. Also, it's not an extreme view. While men may be more sexually fluid than women regarding attraction to genitals, that doesn't make women less entitled to their decision not to have sex with people with penises.

Are you talking about the article or comments on this thread?

The comments on this thread.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone on here who thinks adolescents shouldn’t be allowed to alter their bodies should talk to the Kardashians and all of the Hollywood types who think a good boob job or butt injections are a good thing for a kid under the age of 18!

Yeah, I’m certainly not advocating for anything Kardashian-esque. I don’t think minors should have cosmetic surgery, and I also don’t think they should have gender reassignment surgery. But let’s be real, a procedure to have your ears pinned or something is hardly the same as removing your penis and testicles.

Anonymous wrote:Anyone on here who thinks adolescents shouldn’t be allowed to alter their bodies should talk to the Kardashians and all of the Hollywood types who think a good boob job or butt injections are a good thing for a kid under the age of 18!

They shouldn’t do it either! But if I say that no one disagrees with me, but if I say that about kids with gender dysphoria I’m a bigot.

Anonymous wrote:+1. See also: incels. Any argument that concludes “there’s something wrong with you if you don’t want to have sex with me” is a) gross and b) a product of male socialization and entitlement.

Cheer up, trans girls. By being asked to adhere to impossible beauty standards and being punished for being unattractive, you’re getting the real female experience. Enjoy.

Yo. That second part is truth though.there is plenty of suck to go around when you ID as female

Anyone on here who thinks adolescents shouldn’t be allowed to alter their bodies should talk to the Kardashians and all of the Hollywood types who think a good boob job or butt injections are a good thing for a kid under the age of 18!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

I’m sorry you have so much trouble reading.

No, that's exactly what it says. That you shouldn't judge people by their bodies because we choose our gender.

Look, you choose to be masc or fem in the social/behavioral sense but there are aspects of gender that are biological. Like having a penis or a vagina. I can respect that you identify so much with femininity that you feel more comfortable living as a woman. But that doesn't make your penis something other than a penis. Also, it's not an extreme view. While men may be more sexually fluid than women regarding attraction to genitals, that doesn't make women less entitled to their decision not to have sex with people with penises.

Are you talking about the article or comments on this thread?

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Personally, I still don’t quite see the article as “rape culture”. To me, it didn’t sound like the author was trying to force sex or coerce anyone. But that’s based on my own experiences and perspectives. Maybe the author is drawing only upon her own experiences and knowledge and wasn’t aware of conversion techniques, etc.?

It's definitely a male tendency to try to convince someone who says they're not interested that "oh yes, you actually ARE interested!", and not let up until they get what they want. I think it's happened to most women. There's a reason that the phrase "no means NO!" is drilled into women and "he wouldn't take no for an answer" is something we've grown accustomed to hearing. It's not okay.

Yup. If you feel the need to write a blog post about why someone should sleep with you, just... don’t.

Got it. How pervasive is this attitude?

And thoughts about “women who menstruate”? Sorry if that’s a repeat.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

I’m sorry you have so much trouble reading.

No, that's exactly what it says. That you shouldn't judge people by their bodies because we choose our gender.

Look, you choose to be masc or fem in the social/behavioral sense but there are aspects of gender that are biological. Like having a penis or a vagina. I can respect that you identify so much with femininity that you feel more comfortable living as a woman. But that doesn't make your penis something other than a penis. Also, it's not an extreme view. While men may be more sexually fluid than women regarding attraction to genitals, that doesn't make women less entitled to their decision not to have sex with people with penises.

+1. See also: incels. Any argument that concludes “there’s something wrong with you if you don’t want to have sex with me” is a) gross and b) a product of male socialization and entitlement.

Cheer up, trans girls. By being asked to adhere to impossible beauty standards and being punished for being unattractive, you’re getting the real female experience. Enjoy.