Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do we know the potential long term effects for hormone treatments in adolescence?

Do we know the potential long-term effects for infertility medications/treatments? New cancer treatments? New coronavirus vaccines/treatments?

Patients work with the doctors to weigh treatment risks for all sorts of serious medical issues.

Why focus on this particular one?

Because these are children. And because doctors are influenced by social pressure. And doctors have been influenced by social pressure here.

You think doctors are going to violate their Hippocratic oath over “social pressure”.

So you know more than the families and their doctors?

Ven diagram poster here who is primarily concerned with language.

I think both of you on this argument are being obtuse. The answer clearly lies in the middle.

Children should not be allowed to physically alter their bodies without extensive consultation and evaluation. But for the most part that is what happens. This is a fabricated problem. Trans children getting not enough medical counseling and support is a far greater problem then getting too much intervention. There are, assuredly, outliers but overall I think the bar to transition is quite high and involves many steps over years. You do not tell your mom you are trans in January and become a boy/girl by June. It just doesn’t happen that way and it’s disingenuous to say it does. These kids are frequently very depressed and/or confused as they work through this and we should actually trust doctors and parents to work together while certainly shining a spotlight on abuse and malpractice where it happens.

I generally agree with JKR and with this. I know 2 children who are transitioning at some level. For both them this consists of affirming their choices in clothing, personal styles, names, and pronouns but perhaps at some point it will include medicine. For children, gender affirmation is life and death, sometimes that includes using medication with tradeoffs.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I still don’t quite see the article as “rape culture”. To me, it didn’t sound like the author was trying to force sex or coerce anyone. But that’s based on my own experiences and perspectives. Maybe the author is drawing only upon her own experiences and knowledge and wasn’t aware of conversion techniques, etc.?

It's definitely a male tendency to try to convince someone who says they're not interested that "oh yes, you actually ARE interested!", and not let up until they get what they want. I think it's happened to most women. There's a reason that the phrase "no means NO!" is drilled into women and "he wouldn't take no for an answer" is something we've grown accustomed to hearing. It's not okay.

Yup. If you fee the need to write a blog post about why someone should sleep with you, just... don’t.

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I still don’t quite see the article as “rape culture”. To me, it didn’t sound like the author was trying to force sex or coerce anyone. But that’s based on my own experiences and perspectives. Maybe the author is drawing only upon her own experiences and knowledge and wasn’t aware of conversion techniques, etc.?

It's definitely a male tendency to try to convince someone who says they're not interested that "oh yes, you actually ARE interested!", and not let up until they get what they want. I think it's happened to most women. There's a reason that the phrase "no means NO!" is drilled into women and "he wouldn't take no for an answer" is something we've grown accustomed to hearing. It's not okay.

Yup! I will untangle your spaghetti straps, hold your purse, and vote in your interests. But I won’t sleep with you and I won’t feel guilty about it, either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Repeat after me: other people’s gender identity is none of my business and I don’t need to police it. It’s literally not up to you decide when a person can or should transition

x1 million

In our society we protect children. They’re not allowed to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, get a tattoo, go to a tanning salon. Yet we’re allowing them to surgically alter their bodies and take hormones. A 4000% increase in girls seeking treatment for gender issues is a cause for serious concern. We should be looking at why so many girls want to opt out of womanhood and boys opt out of manhood. It’s not out of line to raise the alarm over this.

You’re very misinformed. Most teens who transition do not have any type of surgery. The medication they take essentially puts hormonal development “on pause” to allow them time to transition or, if necessary, transition back if they decide to do that. Coming off the medication would continue development as usual. They’re not “opting out” of anything - they are opting into living life that is true to who they are. your faux concern is way off base.

The drugs used to “pause” puberty are not without harm. They can cause a lifetime of issues related to bone loss, including brittle bones and painful joints. https://khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

There are minors getting hormones and “top surgery”. They’re being given medications rather than the mental heath care they really need. Here’s one psychiatrist’s story. https://quillette.com/2017/10/06/misunderstanding-new-kind-gender-dysphoria/

Look at Jazz Jennings, arguably the poster child for transitioning as a minor. At the age of 19, Jazz has never experienced an orgasm. She has a vagina which has to be dilated daily, which allows her to participate in a sex act she won’t derive pleasure from. She’s been sterilized. She’ll never have children of her own. All this because at the age of 2, she was a little boy who liked dresses and the color purple, and some say was emulating a beloved older sister.

She has bodily autonomy. You don't get a say in what she (and her family and doctors) decide to do with her body.

But women don't get to say who they allow access to their bodies without being labeled transphobic.(see link in this thread). Lesbians are cancelled, harassed, and receive death threats for saying they don't want to have sex with natal men. And I am sure you agree with that.

You absolutely, 100% do not truly care about bodily autonomy. I think you are lying.

What page was that? I haven’t read all of the early pages.

You are making a lot of assumptions about me. Why is that?

This article:

https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

I fully support anti-discrimination, use of preferred gender, etc. But articles like this are appalling. NOBODY gets to decide who gets access to my body or any other person's body for me. This article is rape culture straight up. And it is against bodily autonomy.

If you support this author, if you think she is right, you cannot simultaneously say you support bodily autonomy.

It’s complicated - people are attracted to certain looks or characteristics.

I read her op-ed as “keep an open mind” and I don’t really see how you connect that to “rape culture”. Can you explain?

Lesbian here. It bothers me because my mom also wanted me to “keep an open mind” about dating men. My sexual orientation is not changeable. And I’m not attracted to gender identity, I’m attracted to sex. Same as most people.

This quote from the article particularly bothers me:

> “ Are you afraid of genitals you’re not familiar with? Some trans women have a penis, some don’t. Some trans men have a penis, some don’t. You can’t assume someone’s genitals based on their identity, and more so, you might be missing out on sex that’s fun and pleasurable just because you’re unable to see a penis as feminine or a vulva as masculine. How is my permanently attached strapon functionally any different than a cis woman’s detachable strapon?”

Your PEN*S is not remotely comparable to anyone’s STRAPON. This is exactly what straight men say to try to get lesbians to sleep with them. My dislike of male anatomy isn’t something I need to get over — that is what Christian conversion therapy tries and fails to do.

And while a trans woman may or may not have a pn*s, she definitely doesn’t have a vag*na. Even the surgical ones are just not the same.

Thank you for explaining.

Personally, I still don’t quite see the article as “rape culture”. To me, it didn’t sound like the author was trying to force sex or coerce anyone. But that’s based on my own experiences and perspectives. Maybe the author is drawing only upon her own experiences and knowledge and wasn’t aware of conversion techniques, etc.?

Glad you shared so I can understand your perspective better.

Hey girl. Yup, I agree. Y’all are welcome to hang out but don’t make us talk about, look at, or touch your d*ck. It shouldn’t be controversial to say lesbians don’t like d*ck!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Repeat after me: other people’s gender identity is none of my business and I don’t need to police it. It’s literally not up to you decide when a person can or should transition

x1 million

In our society we protect children. They’re not allowed to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, get a tattoo, go to a tanning salon. Yet we’re allowing them to surgically alter their bodies and take hormones. A 4000% increase in girls seeking treatment for gender issues is a cause for serious concern. We should be looking at why so many girls want to opt out of womanhood and boys opt out of manhood. It’s not out of line to raise the alarm over this.

You’re very misinformed. Most teens who transition do not have any type of surgery. The medication they take essentially puts hormonal development “on pause” to allow them time to transition or, if necessary, transition back if they decide to do that. Coming off the medication would continue development as usual. They’re not “opting out” of anything - they are opting into living life that is true to who they are. your faux concern is way off base.

The drugs used to “pause” puberty are not without harm. They can cause a lifetime of issues related to bone loss, including brittle bones and painful joints. https://khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

There are minors getting hormones and “top surgery”. They’re being given medications rather than the mental heath care they really need. Here’s one psychiatrist’s story. https://quillette.com/2017/10/06/misunderstanding-new-kind-gender-dysphoria/

Look at Jazz Jennings, arguably the poster child for transitioning as a minor. At the age of 19, Jazz has never experienced an orgasm. She has a vagina which has to be dilated daily, which allows her to participate in a sex act she won’t derive pleasure from. She’s been sterilized. She’ll never have children of her own. All this because at the age of 2, she was a little boy who liked dresses and the color purple, and some say was emulating a beloved older sister.

She has bodily autonomy. You don't get a say in what she (and her family and doctors) decide to do with her body.

But women don't get to say who they allow access to their bodies without being labeled transphobic.(see link in this thread). Lesbians are cancelled, harassed, and receive death threats for saying they don't want to have sex with natal men. And I am sure you agree with that.

You absolutely, 100% do not truly care about bodily autonomy. I think you are lying.

What page was that? I haven’t read all of the early pages.

You are making a lot of assumptions about me. Why is that?

This article:

https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

I fully support anti-discrimination, use of preferred gender, etc. But articles like this are appalling. NOBODY gets to decide who gets access to my body or any other person's body for me. This article is rape culture straight up. And it is against bodily autonomy.

If you support this author, if you think she is right, you cannot simultaneously say you support bodily autonomy.

It’s complicated - people are attracted to certain looks or characteristics.

I read her op-ed as “keep an open mind” and I don’t really see how you connect that to “rape culture”. Can you explain?

Lesbian here. It bothers me because my mom also wanted me to “keep an open mind” about dating men. My sexual orientation is not changeable. And I’m not attracted to gender identity, I’m attracted to sex. Same as most people.

This quote from the article particularly bothers me:

> “ Are you afraid of genitals you’re not familiar with? Some trans women have a penis, some don’t. Some trans men have a penis, some don’t. You can’t assume someone’s genitals based on their identity, and more so, you might be missing out on sex that’s fun and pleasurable just because you’re unable to see a penis as feminine or a vulva as masculine. How is my permanently attached strapon functionally any different than a cis woman’s detachable strapon?”

Your PEN*S is not remotely comparable to anyone’s STRAPON. This is exactly what straight men say to try to get lesbians to sleep with them. My dislike of male anatomy isn’t something I need to get over — that is what Christian conversion therapy tries and fails to do.

And while a trans woman may or may not have a pn*s, she definitely doesn’t have a vag*na. Even the surgical ones are just not the same.

Hah! Hi, sister. We posted at exactly the same time about exactly the same quote.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Repeat after me: other people’s gender identity is none of my business and I don’t need to police it. It’s literally not up to you decide when a person can or should transition

x1 million

In our society we protect children. They’re not allowed to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, get a tattoo, go to a tanning salon. Yet we’re allowing them to surgically alter their bodies and take hormones. A 4000% increase in girls seeking treatment for gender issues is a cause for serious concern. We should be looking at why so many girls want to opt out of womanhood and boys opt out of manhood. It’s not out of line to raise the alarm over this.

You’re very misinformed. Most teens who transition do not have any type of surgery. The medication they take essentially puts hormonal development “on pause” to allow them time to transition or, if necessary, transition back if they decide to do that. Coming off the medication would continue development as usual. They’re not “opting out” of anything - they are opting into living life that is true to who they are. your faux concern is way off base.

The drugs used to “pause” puberty are not without harm. They can cause a lifetime of issues related to bone loss, including brittle bones and painful joints. https://khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

There are minors getting hormones and “top surgery”. They’re being given medications rather than the mental heath care they really need. Here’s one psychiatrist’s story. https://quillette.com/2017/10/06/misunderstanding-new-kind-gender-dysphoria/

Look at Jazz Jennings, arguably the poster child for transitioning as a minor. At the age of 19, Jazz has never experienced an orgasm. She has a vagina which has to be dilated daily, which allows her to participate in a sex act she won’t derive pleasure from. She’s been sterilized. She’ll never have children of her own. All this because at the age of 2, she was a little boy who liked dresses and the color purple, and some say was emulating a beloved older sister.

She has bodily autonomy. You don't get a say in what she (and her family and doctors) decide to do with her body.

But women don't get to say who they allow access to their bodies without being labeled transphobic.(see link in this thread). Lesbians are cancelled, harassed, and receive death threats for saying they don't want to have sex with natal men. And I am sure you agree with that.

You absolutely, 100% do not truly care about bodily autonomy. I think you are lying.

What page was that? I haven’t read all of the early pages.

You are making a lot of assumptions about me. Why is that?

This article:

https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

I fully support anti-discrimination, use of preferred gender, etc. But articles like this are appalling. NOBODY gets to decide who gets access to my body or any other person's body for me. This article is rape culture straight up. And it is against bodily autonomy.

If you support this author, if you think she is right, you cannot simultaneously say you support bodily autonomy.

It’s complicated - people are attracted to certain looks or characteristics.

I read her op-ed as “keep an open mind” and I don’t really see how you connect that to “rape culture”. Can you explain?

Different poster, but as a lesbian I also found this horrible, rapey, and soaked with male privilege:

“Are you afraid of genitals you’re not familiar with? Some trans women have a penis, some don’t. Some trans men have a penis, some don’t. You can’t assume someone’s genitals based on their identity, and more so, you might be missing out on sex that’s fun and pleasurable just because you’re unable to see a penis as feminine or a vulva as masculine. How is my permanently attached strapon functionally any different than a cis woman’s detachable strapon?”

JFC IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. I might be missing out on pleasurable sex with your magic girldick? Thanks a bunch. This is language of of corrective rape. I’m not “afraid” or “unable to see a penis as feminine”. Tie a pink bow on your penis and I’ll agree it’s totally the girliest penis I’ve ever seen. Still won’t want to f**k it, though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Repeat after me: other people’s gender identity is none of my business and I don’t need to police it. It’s literally not up to you decide when a person can or should transition

x1 million

In our society we protect children. They’re not allowed to drink alcohol, smoke cigarettes, get a tattoo, go to a tanning salon. Yet we’re allowing them to surgically alter their bodies and take hormones. A 4000% increase in girls seeking treatment for gender issues is a cause for serious concern. We should be looking at why so many girls want to opt out of womanhood and boys opt out of manhood. It’s not out of line to raise the alarm over this.

You’re very misinformed. Most teens who transition do not have any type of surgery. The medication they take essentially puts hormonal development “on pause” to allow them time to transition or, if necessary, transition back if they decide to do that. Coming off the medication would continue development as usual. They’re not “opting out” of anything - they are opting into living life that is true to who they are. your faux concern is way off base.

The drugs used to “pause” puberty are not without harm. They can cause a lifetime of issues related to bone loss, including brittle bones and painful joints. https://khn.org/news/women-fear-drug-they-used-to-halt-puberty-led-to-health-problems/

There are minors getting hormones and “top surgery”. They’re being given medications rather than the mental heath care they really need. Here’s one psychiatrist’s story. https://quillette.com/2017/10/06/misunderstanding-new-kind-gender-dysphoria/

Look at Jazz Jennings, arguably the poster child for transitioning as a minor. At the age of 19, Jazz has never experienced an orgasm. She has a vagina which has to be dilated daily, which allows her to participate in a sex act she won’t derive pleasure from. She’s been sterilized. She’ll never have children of her own. All this because at the age of 2, she was a little boy who liked dresses and the color purple, and some say was emulating a beloved older sister.

She has bodily autonomy. You don't get a say in what she (and her family and doctors) decide to do with her body.

But women don't get to say who they allow access to their bodies without being labeled transphobic.(see link in this thread). Lesbians are cancelled, harassed, and receive death threats for saying they don't want to have sex with natal men. And I am sure you agree with that.

You absolutely, 100% do not truly care about bodily autonomy. I think you are lying.

What page was that? I haven’t read all of the early pages.

You are making a lot of assumptions about me. Why is that?

This article:

https://medium.com/@QSE/when-you-say-i-would-never-date-a-trans-person-its-transphobic-here-s-why-aa6fdcf59aca

I fully support anti-discrimination, use of preferred gender, etc. But articles like this are appalling. NOBODY gets to decide who gets access to my body or any other person's body for me. This article is rape culture straight up. And it is against bodily autonomy.

If you support this author, if you think she is right, you cannot simultaneously say you support bodily autonomy.

It’s complicated - people are attracted to certain looks or characteristics.

I read her op-ed as “keep an open mind” and I don’t really see how you connect that to “rape culture”. Can you explain?

Lesbian here. It bothers me because my mom also wanted me to “keep an open mind” about dating men. My sexual orientation is not changeable. And I’m not attracted to gender identity, I’m attracted to sex. Same as most people.

This quote from the article particularly bothers me:

> “ Are you afraid of genitals you’re not familiar with? Some trans women have a penis, some don’t. Some trans men have a penis, some don’t. You can’t assume someone’s genitals based on their identity, and more so, you might be missing out on sex that’s fun and pleasurable just because you’re unable to see a penis as feminine or a vulva as masculine. How is my permanently attached strapon functionally any different than a cis woman’s detachable strapon?”

Your PEN*S is not remotely comparable to anyone’s STRAPON. This is exactly what straight men say to try to get lesbians to sleep with them. My dislike of male anatomy isn’t something I need to get over — that is what Christian conversion therapy tries and fails to do.

And while a trans woman may or may not have a pn*s, she definitely doesn’t have a vag*na. Even the surgical ones are just not the same.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The secular left is quickly finding out, in a world where critical theory increasingly drives how the world is conceptualized, that last week's victim can become this week's oppressor.

Spoken like a true religious oppressor. You can be as hateful as you want and take away rights of others - all in the name of jesus or whoever, right?

DP but what?! How is pointing out that power dynamics in a critical theory prism are precarious a religious statement?

Oh yeah, I found it here. John 3:57 "And so sayeth the Lord, Marx's philosophy of unconscious social dynamics is satanic."

By attributing that as a mechanism of “the secular left”.

PP seems to prefer good ‘ole-fashioned religious oppression of hating and attacking everyone who isn’t like you.

Anonymous wrote:Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

I’m sorry you have so much trouble reading.

Here's what I've taken from this thread. In order to be supportive of trans, lesbians must have sex with people with penises because gender is just a social construct and all property, including your own body, is theft.

I used to be liberal. But the left has jumped the shark.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The secular left is quickly finding out, in a world where critical theory increasingly drives how the world is conceptualized, that last week's victim can become this week's oppressor.

Spoken like a true religious oppressor. You can be as hateful as you want and take away rights of others - all in the name of jesus or whoever, right?

DP but what?! How is pointing out that power dynamics in a critical theory prism are precarious a religious statement?

Oh yeah, I found it here. John 3:57 "And so sayeth the Lord, Marx's philosophy of unconscious social dynamics is satanic."

I read this thread and I see confusion between PPs, all of good intent, because of what looks like semantics to me. When you use the word “woman”, how do you mean it? How do you define it? If you are talking about biological sex, the definition is based on chromosomes. XX is female. XY is male. We must acknowledge that there are a small group of people who do not fit into either of these boxes due to chromosomal abnormalities, but I don’t see that this third group is what we are talking about here. Another discussion perhaps.

Then there is the use of “woman” to denote a gender. Here things get more slippery for me. What does this mean? If you separate this from biological sex, then you are talking purely about things that result from socialization. I submit that when it comes to the idea of gender separate from biological sex, that the definition of what is “woman” would be unique to each individual depending on the place/time/culture in which they were raised and their own unique life experiences. The same for “man.” The more I think about it, the more the idea that some people would refuse to pick one of the other with all the baggage that can come with these terms makes perfect sense to me.

It feels like some of the PPs who would call themselves trans advocates and call the rest of us anti-trans are making some broad and unfair assumptions about what is required to be a trans supporter. What you are really concerned about, what we are all concerned about, is the safety and well-being of trans people. BUT you are getting hung up on convincing people to believe something that is simply, factually untrue as a litmus test for our support. The supporters of JKR seem to be trying to say to you that, based on biological sex, you cannot say that a trans woman is the same as a biologically-born woman. There are consequences of this that are important to acknowledge and navigate, as many posters on this thread have discussed more eloquently than I could.

The problem is not to acknowledge the differences. What we should all be worried about for trans people, or any group of people, really, is that differences are not used to harm them, bully them, marginalize them. We are looking for everyone to be treated as having the same worth as human beings, to receive the same respect as human beings, to having their emotional and physical needs met. Outside of a few trolls, I would say that those of us arguing on this thread all want those needs met for trans people. Period.

But the people who are saying that trans women are women, completely the same, are asking many of us to accept something we see as fundamentally untrue. They are presenting it as an absolute criterion for being pro-trans and the only way we can affirm the things I wrote in the previous paragraph. I would submit that I can disagree, and see trans women as fundamentally different than biologically born women, and still support them and want all those things for them. In some cases, I would say to ignore the differences is to their peril. Take the example of health care. The fact that the Trump administration would roll back anti-discrimination protections for trans people is abhorrent to me. But I would also submit to you that to ignore the original biological sex of a trans person in the course of their health care would be to their detriment. What we need to be advocating for is more attention in research and medical education to produce doctors who are versed in the unique medical needs of this population.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Do we know the potential long term effects for hormone treatments in adolescence?

Do we know the potential long-term effects for infertility medications/treatments? New cancer treatments? New coronavirus vaccines/treatments?

Patients work with the doctors to weigh treatment risks for all sorts of serious medical issues.

Why focus on this particular one?

Because that is what we are discussing in this thread. It is a legitimate question is you want to talk about adolescents undergoing treatments. In fact, if you are a trans-advocate you SHOULD be asking this question in the interest of the health and safety of these adolescents.

So “concerned”!