Anonymous
09/22/2014 15:27
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
Is that really true, though?
How many IB Hardy kids place into the advanced classes at Wilson? How many IB Deal kids place in?
DCPS does not publish IB/OOB breakdowns for the DC CAS. However, vast majority of the white kids at both schools are probably IB, so let's use them as a proxy for IB:
74% of the white kids at Deal scored advanced in math on the DC CAS last year, but only 46% of the white kids at Hardy did.
52% of the white kids at Deal scored advance in reading on the DC CAS last year, but only 29% of the white kids at Hardy did.
Research suggests that sending middle class kids to high-poverty schools has a deleterious effect on the educational outcomes of those middle class kids, and the DC CAS results for Hardy appear to bear this out.
So you think your child's DC CAS scores would be dragged down 20+% by attending Hardy vs Deal? No, of course not, because your kid came up through Stoddert or Hyde and is going to ace the DC CAS. And your kid will be able to get into advanced classes at Wilson. The idea that somehow YOUR child will be measurably injured by attending Hardy is absurd. Thank goodness there are increasing numbers of in-bounds families who know that their kids are not going to be hurt by their three years at Hardy. It's too bad you don't have the same confidence in your child.
There's a slogan: Hardy won't hurt you.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 15:13
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Interesting stats, pp. Thanks for posting. Yeah, you should definitely not send your kids there.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
Is that really true, though?
How many IB Hardy kids place into the advanced classes at Wilson? How many IB Deal kids place in?
DCPS does not publish IB/OOB breakdowns for the DC CAS. However, vast majority of the white kids at both schools are probably IB, so let's use them as a proxy for IB:
74% of the white kids at Deal scored advanced in math on the DC CAS last year, but only 46% of the white kids at Hardy did.
52% of the white kids at Deal scored advance in reading on the DC CAS last year, but only 29% of the white kids at Hardy did.
Research suggests that sending middle class kids to high-poverty schools has a deleterious effect on the educational outcomes of those middle class kids, and the DC CAS results for Hardy appear to bear this out.
But how about not sending your kids there and not whining about it? I have no problem with people who feel that Hardy is not the right environment for their child and want to send the kid elsewhere. But the whining that goes on on this thread and practically every other thread about Hardy? So tiresome.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 15:03
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
Is that really true, though?
How many IB Hardy kids place into the advanced classes at Wilson? How many IB Deal kids place in?
DCPS does not publish IB/OOB breakdowns for the DC CAS. However, vast majority of the white kids at both schools are probably IB, so let's use them as a proxy for IB:
74% of the white kids at Deal scored advanced in math on the DC CAS last year, but only 46% of the white kids at Hardy did.
52% of the white kids at Deal scored advance in reading on the DC CAS last year, but only 29% of the white kids at Hardy did.
Research suggests that sending middle class kids to high-poverty schools has a deleterious effect on the educational outcomes of those middle class kids, and the DC CAS results for Hardy appear to bear this out.
So you think your child's DC CAS scores would be dragged down 20+% by attending Hardy vs Deal? No, of course not, because your kid came up through Stoddert or Hyde and is going to ace the DC CAS. And your kid will be able to get into advanced classes at Wilson. The idea that somehow YOUR child will be measurably injured by attending Hardy is absurd. Thank goodness there are increasing numbers of in-bounds families who know that their kids are not going to be hurt by their three years at Hardy. It's too bad you don't have the same confidence in your child.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:56
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
call me cynical, but my guess is the commenter who is warning IB families away from Hardy because it's a bad experience, is an OOB parent who values the experience for their kid.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:55
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:74% of the white kids at Deal scored advanced in math on the DC CAS last year, but only 46% of the white kids at Hardy did.
52% of the white kids at Deal scored advance in reading on the DC CAS last year, but only 29% of the white kids at Hardy did.
Research suggests that sending middle class kids to high-poverty schools has a deleterious effect on the educational outcomes of those middle class kids, and the DC CAS results for Hardy appear to bear this out.
Assuming no selection bias in which white familes chose to send their kids. An heroic assumption, I dare say.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:52
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
Is that really true, though?
How many IB Hardy kids place into the advanced classes at Wilson? How many IB Deal kids place in?
DCPS does not publish IB/OOB breakdowns for the DC CAS. However, vast majority of the white kids at both schools are probably IB, so let's use them as a proxy for IB:
74% of the white kids at Deal scored advanced in math on the DC CAS last year, but only 46% of the white kids at Hardy did.
52% of the white kids at Deal scored advance in reading on the DC CAS last year, but only 29% of the white kids at Hardy did.
Research suggests that sending middle class kids to high-poverty schools has a deleterious effect on the educational outcomes of those middle class kids, and the DC CAS results for Hardy appear to bear this out.
You're right of course, but the point is not for IB families to send their kids to a high-poverty school. The point is to overcome the prisoners' dilemma, after which Hardy will cease to be a high-poverty school.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:49
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
Is that really true, though?
How many IB Hardy kids place into the advanced classes at Wilson? How many IB Deal kids place in?
DCPS does not publish IB/OOB breakdowns for the DC CAS. However, vast majority of the white kids at both schools are probably IB, so let's use them as a proxy for IB:
74% of the white kids at Deal scored advanced in math on the DC CAS last year, but only 46% of the white kids at Hardy did.
52% of the white kids at Deal scored advance in reading on the DC CAS last year, but only 29% of the white kids at Hardy did.
Research suggests that sending middle class kids to high-poverty schools has a deleterious effect on the educational outcomes of those middle class kids, and the DC CAS results for Hardy appear to bear this out.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:19
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You're right, PP. The issue is school quality. A 55% FARMs middle school is likely to have a detrimental impact on a middle class kid, and family supports will not be enough to compensate:
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf
But if more IB students attend, either through more of the existing IB students choosing to attend, as already seems to be the case, or through more new market rate housing with at least 2BRs, that would in itself reduce the % of FARMs.
Note, the old profile gives Hardy a FARMS % if 55. If the above mentioned claims on IB in the 6th grade are correct, that percentage should already be lower for the 6th grade.
So, we're back to the grassroots effort: Let's improve Hardy by all agreeing to enroll our IB kids so that we drive the FARMs rate down (mostly by driving out the FARMs kids).
However, since the transformation can't happen overnight, the plan is really more like: Let's sacrifice the educational experiences of IB middle schoolers for some as of yet undetermined number of years so that future IB middle schoolers will have access to a high quality neighborhood middle school.
Driving FARMS kids out is one way to spin it. In fact what will happen is that as more of the capacity (whatever it truely is) is taken by IB students, there weill be fewer OOB spots. There is no cap the enrollment below what it now is, however. Unless you buy into the idea that Hardy, uniquely, must be like a charter, there is nothing wrong with that.
And from what I have read in this thread and elsewhere, the IB parents sending their kids to Hardy this year beleive they will have a good experience.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:19
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You're right, PP. The issue is school quality. A 55% FARMs middle school is likely to have a detrimental impact on a middle class kid, and family supports will not be enough to compensate:
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf
But if more IB students attend, either through more of the existing IB students choosing to attend, as already seems to be the case, or through more new market rate housing with at least 2BRs, that would in itself reduce the % of FARMs.
Note, the old profile gives Hardy a FARMS % if 55. If the above mentioned claims on IB in the 6th grade are correct, that percentage should already be lower for the 6th grade.
So, we're back to the grassroots effort: Let's improve Hardy by all agreeing to enroll our IB kids so that we drive the FARMs rate down (mostly by driving out the FARMs kids).
However, since the transformation can't happen overnight, the plan is really more like: Let's sacrifice the educational experiences of IB middle schoolers for some as of yet undetermined number of years so that future IB middle schoolers will have access to a high quality neighborhood middle school.
Oh, my God, the drama. As if going to a just-okay middle school for three years is going to doom your child forever. You think your kid won't be able to keep up with the Deal kids once they all wind up at Wilson together? Have a little faith in yourself and your children. You can overcome this dreadful setback!
Anonymous
09/22/2014 14:00
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:
You're right, PP. The issue is school quality. A 55% FARMs middle school is likely to have a detrimental impact on a middle class kid, and family supports will not be enough to compensate:
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf
But if more IB students attend, either through more of the existing IB students choosing to attend, as already seems to be the case, or through more new market rate housing with at least 2BRs, that would in itself reduce the % of FARMs.
Note, the old profile gives Hardy a FARMS % if 55. If the above mentioned claims on IB in the 6th grade are correct, that percentage should already be lower for the 6th grade.
So, we're back to the grassroots effort: Let's improve Hardy by all agreeing to enroll our IB kids so that we drive the FARMs rate down (mostly by driving out the FARMs kids).
However, since the transformation can't happen overnight, the plan is really more like: Let's sacrifice the educational experiences of IB middle schoolers for some as of yet undetermined number of years so that future IB middle schoolers will have access to a high quality neighborhood middle school.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 13:33
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know when Maret School's limited "exclusive" on the Jelleff field expires? The dedication sign at Jelleff (with Maret's name on it) is dated 2010. It sure would be nice if Hardy kids had access to a real soccer and baseball field that is practically across the street.
The deal was signed in January, 2010 and the first season of play was Fall 2010. It's a ten year deal.
But keep in mind that it's only weekdays 3:30-5:30, Labor Day through the first week of November in the fall and March to mid-May in the spring. Hardy could use it during the day for PE and after school late fall through early spring.
It's crazy that DC agreed to a deal like this. I could see the government doing it during the Barry days when all the tax money was going down a rat hole, but in the last decade DC has spent meaningful funds renovating rec facilities without being tied up in exclusives. They didn't need Maret's money. It's a shame because it would be a great home field for Hardy teams, equal to if not better than Deal's facilities.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 13:10
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know when Maret School's limited "exclusive" on the Jelleff field expires? The dedication sign at Jelleff (with Maret's name on it) is dated 2010. It sure would be nice if Hardy kids had access to a real soccer and baseball field that is practically across the street.
The deal was signed in January, 2010 and the first season of play was Fall 2010. It's a ten year deal.
But keep in mind that it's only weekdays 3:30-5:30, Labor Day through the first week of November in the fall and March to mid-May in the spring. Hardy could use it during the day for PE and after school late fall through early spring.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 13:04
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:
You're right, PP. The issue is school quality. A 55% FARMs middle school is likely to have a detrimental impact on a middle class kid, and family supports will not be enough to compensate:
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf
But if more IB students attend, either through more of the existing IB students choosing to attend, as already seems to be the case, or through more new market rate housing with at least 2BRs, that would in itself reduce the % of FARMs.
Note, the old profile gives Hardy a FARMS % if 55. If the above mentioned claims on IB in the 6th grade are correct, that percentage should already be lower for the 6th grade.
Anonymous
09/22/2014 13:00
Subject: Re:So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Continuing:
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf
Experts have called students themselves the "hidden curriculum," meaning that students
learn as much from peers as from textbooks, homework, class projects and other
pedagogical services provided by the school. All Together Now at 48. Indeed, studies
have found that peers exert a stronger influence on students than do teachers and parents.
Id. at 48; The Coleman Report at 302 (highlighting the importance of this finding). In
low-poverty schools, this high degree of influence is educationally advantageous, as peer
interaction between different socio-economic groups and achievement levels generally
has a positive effect on outcomes because students testing below grade-level "are
distinctly helped by being in school with more high-achieving students." All Together
Now at 50. In high-poverty schools, however, where the myriad socio-economic
problems of impoverished neighborhoods are dominant, peer influence can be a
dangerous thing, seriously interfering with a student's ability and motivation to learn and
achieve. See Quality Counts, School Climate at 1…10
Peer influence in high-poverty schools will not only diminish a student's ability to learn,
but his or her motivation to learn. Whether rich, poor or middle class, a student placed in
a high-poverty school will encounter an atmosphere that can be hostile to hard work and
high achievement. Impoverished students lack the life experience to see the value of hard
work in school, and may regard academic success as a capitulation to the values of a
middle class they have been excluded from. All Together Now at 51-2. In high-poverty
schools, students who work hard may be mocked for their efforts, and academic success
is regarded with suspicion, or hostility. Impoverished students also lack the experiential
foundation to share their middle class peers' desire to succeed or appreciate the
connection between success in school and success in life. See Concentrated Poverty and
Educational Achievement at 6 (describing how "general isolation from mainstream
experiences and opportunities," "limited life chances," "prior negative experiences," and
"experiences of exclusion from mainstream institutions" all work against educational
achievement).11
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf
Anonymous
09/22/2014 12:57
Subject: So how many IB are going to really be at Hardy?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:At the end of the day, it's always about class and socio-economics. White folks are fine sending their kids to schools with majority Black and Hispanic students as long as those students come from middle class homes. No one want to have too many "poors" at their school. This is not rocket science.
Absolutely correct. Diagnosing the problem is not hard. Fixing it is - unless you think the solution is to ban poor kids from attending Hardy.
Fixing it is easy: the parent cohorts at each feeder school need to agree among themselves to send their kids to Hardy. Voila. Test scores go up immediately. Advanced course participation rises immediately. Problem solved.
Good luck. I've experienced this. What will happen is that this group of parents will all look each other right in the eye, promise they are going to Hardy, then run off and secretly apply to privates and charters and buy houses in the suburbs or in the Deal district. A couple of parents who are saps will be left holding the bag.
Exactly. That fix won't work.
The fix that will work is to cut enrollment until about 70 to 80% of the seats are filled by IB families who want to to enroll in the 6th grade TODAY. Then, for every 7 or 8 more IB kids who enroll, admit another 2 or 3 OOB kids.
It's foolish to set enrollment at 300 kids and expect a grassroots campaign among IB families to bring IB enrollment to 70 to 80%.
I have an easier fix: this year, do everything possible to make sure that the IB kids who took the leap of faith and started sixth grade have the best experience possible. Make sure they have academic opportunities superior to any other middle school in the city. Make sure the school has a fun and welcoming environment. Make sure the parents feel welcomed and included.
Those families will report back to their neighbors and the IB kids will gush in.
This.
Plus, if reducing FARMS % is such a priority, maybe the way to do that is for Ward3 to be more positive about dense new developments (most units will go to childless, but if even a few do not that would help) to increase the IB pop (and esp high SES families who aren't quite high enough to afford privates) rather than limiting OOB directly, with all the disdain that implies, and that is felt.
The issue west of Rock Creek Park is not a shortage of IB families and kids. Look, for example at Janney, Murch, Lafayette which are overcrowded. Deal and Wilson are, too. Mann, Key and Stoddert are full of IB families. The issue is why more IB families pass on Hardy. In other words, it doesn't turn on IB quantity, but rather on school quality.
You're right, PP. The issue is school quality. A 55% FARMs middle school is likely to have a detrimental impact on a middle class kid, and family supports will not be enough to compensate:
Research establishes that most successful schools are those in which the middle class is
the majority. Success starts turning to failure, it is generally agreed, when the school
becomes 50% minority or low income. See All Together Now at 39. The Prospects
studies found that when half a student body is poor, then all students' achievement will be
depressed, and that when 75% is poor, then all students' achievement will be "seriously"
depressed. Prospects II at 12. Another expert has concluded that a district with over 60%
poor children "can no longer rely solely on its own internal efforts" to avoid failure.
Concentration of Poverty at 133. By comparison, RCSD's 90% poverty configuration
puts it well beyond even these ominous figures, into a level identified as "extreme
poverty." Id. at 134.9
http://www.prrac.org/pdf/annotated_bibliography_on_school_poverty_concentration.pdf