Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 09:00     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Biden and their administration signed off on the added flights a year ago. Again the blame game doesn't work. This is a tragedy some changes will need to happen like making sure helos and airplanes are on the same frequency , this could have happened with a police or even news chopper.


The number of flights wasn't the issue here. Helicopter routes shouldn't be so close to the runway approach. Especially at night.

Why was the helicopter so close to the plane


It didn’t see it approaching. There were a couple other close by planes they were visualizing and when ATC asked them if they say it, it wasn’t clear which plane they were referring to


how do you know this? why wouldn't it be looking/seeing the plane that was directly in front of them?
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:59     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:There’s zero reason for so many helicopters in DC, let alone “training flights.” They fly too low over residential areas and seem to just be doing it as a lark. They should train elsewhere.

Not so sure about the so called training.
I thought they delivered VIPs to CIA, no?


Yes, they dropped the VIP(s?) off at Langley and then a less experienced pilot took the controls for "training hours" for the flight back. They are very much trying to hide that the reason the helicopter was there at all was because some faux-VIP wanted to skip traffic.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:58     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.


This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me


The flight patterns necessarily take planes and helicopters close to each other. This only works if you can trust the helicopter flying under visual rules to see approaching aircraft. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation, but expecting ATC to handle this any other way than they did is wholly impractical.


When multiple planes are in the sky close together, how is it that ATC communicates and distinguishes them to each other? If ATC called the helicopter to ask if they had visual of “the plane,” and the helicopter said yes, but it was a different plane, then ATC made in error in not effectively communicating and distinguishing the threat.


True.


So it's called a visual approach. Only the US frequents this - pilots from Europe think we're nuts because sometimes it's impossible to catch the visual. You really need ATC or tech to make it a higher % of accuracy to make it truly safe. It is usually not a prob esp during day flights but at night even on a clear one, you may just miss seeing something you should. It's not anyone's fault per se but the system they use. I don't even think it's about too many flights contributing to this tragedy it's just the process is not safe.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:57     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Only the best people:

"Obviously it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." -- Sean Duffy, our new secretary of transportation in the new awful administration.

What a freaking Putz.


Yet somehow one of the least unqualified cabinet members/nominees... We're so screwed.


That quote is taken out of context. I’m no R fan but he was explaining how everything was standard, meaning no sos or mechanical failure, whatever, and then probably realized how it sounded and added that. At least he showed up and was prepared and sounded like he gave a crap.


Yes, at least he showed up, unlike Secretary Fox News. But he certainly didn't sound prepared or qualified.


I will say, and this is probably the only time I will say this about a Trumper, it's his first day on the job and I wouldn't want to have to do this on my first day on the job.


That was my thought too. Welcome to the job. Yikes.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:56     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.


This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me



Looks like miscommunication was the biggest factor. The helicopter pilots appear to be focused on air traffic from runway 1. Looks like they waited for an airplane to take off and then crossed. This is a very common route for military helicopters coming up from Ft. Belvoir. But unbeknownst to them, minutes earlier the flight from Wichita had been directed to use the much less frequently used runway 33 instead of runway 1. So it looks like the Army pilots were focused on the wrong plane since their attention was on runway 1.

Clearly, there will need to be new procedures for Reagan, particularly at night. Too much air traffic and too many blinking lights in the night sky to be relying on visual confirmation.


Right after 9/11, we had the opportunity to move Reagan airport outside the beltway.

We failed to make the right choice back then. There should not be a civilian airport inside the beltway.


Where would it have gone?



Andrews AFB was a turn-key solution for relocating Reagan. The Air Force could easily replace Andrews with one of dozens of different locations in the DMV.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:56     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.


There’s a blackhawk pilot on ABC News - the helicopter was likely not flying low enough given planes descending onto the runway.

Why was the helicopter so incredibly close to this crazy busy airport?
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:56     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Biden and their administration signed off on the added flights a year ago. Again the blame game doesn't work. This is a tragedy some changes will need to happen like making sure helos and airplanes are on the same frequency , this could have happened with a police or even news chopper.


The number of flights wasn't the issue here. Helicopter routes shouldn't be so close to the runway approach. Especially at night.

Why was the helicopter so close to the plane


It was focused on other planes and thought it was Ok. Poor comms. Dark at night.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:56     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Biden and their administration signed off on the added flights a year ago. Again the blame game doesn't work. This is a tragedy some changes will need to happen like making sure helos and airplanes are on the same frequency , this could have happened with a police or even news chopper.


The number of flights wasn't the issue here. Helicopter routes shouldn't be so close to the runway approach. Especially at night.

Why was the helicopter so close to the plane


It didn’t see it approaching. There were a couple other close by planes they were visualizing and when ATC asked them if they say it, it wasn’t clear which plane they were referring to
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:54     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.


There’s a blackhawk pilot on ABC News - the helicopter was likely not flying low enough given planes descending onto the runway.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:53     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:There’s zero reason for so many helicopters in DC, let alone “training flights.” They fly too low over residential areas and seem to just be doing it as a lark. They should train elsewhere.

Not so sure about the so called training.
I thought they delivered VIPs to CIA, no?
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:51     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
There’s zero reason for so many helicopters in DC, let alone “training flights.” They fly too low over residential areas and seem to just be doing it as a lark. They should train elsewhere.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:51     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:Does anyone know whether helicopters crossing are supposed to wait for an affirmative okay to cross from the ATC, or whether they can cross unless told NOT to cross by ATC?

This does seem like a crazy intersection to me.


Military missions have different rules. They also are on different frequencies (although monitoring tower.) This is their normal route. It intersects the circle to land pattern for the short runway. It’s a dumb as crap situation and has been a disaster waiting to happen for years. Has nothing to do with how many flights there are at DCA or politics. The scopes are out and show this was a developing situation that ATC didn’t deconflict. And the helo pilot didn’t maintain visual separation. This was completely avoidable and while claiming trump or musk might feel good this one isn’t their fault.
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:51     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Biden and their administration signed off on the added flights a year ago. Again the blame game doesn't work. This is a tragedy some changes will need to happen like making sure helos and airplanes are on the same frequency , this could have happened with a police or even news chopper.


The number of flights wasn't the issue here. Helicopter routes shouldn't be so close to the runway approach. Especially at night.

Why was the helicopter so close to the plane
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:50     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.


This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me



Looks like miscommunication was the biggest factor. The helicopter pilots appear to be focused on air traffic from runway 1. Looks like they waited for an airplane to take off and then crossed. This is a very common route for military helicopters coming up from Ft. Belvoir. But unbeknownst to them, minutes earlier the flight from Wichita had been directed to use the much less frequently used runway 33 instead of runway 1. So it looks like the Army pilots were focused on the wrong plane since their attention was on runway 1.

Clearly, there will need to be new procedures for Reagan, particularly at night. Too much air traffic and too many blinking lights in the night sky to be relying on visual confirmation.


Right after 9/11, we had the opportunity to move Reagan airport outside the beltway.

We failed to make the right choice back then. There should not be a civilian airport inside the beltway.


Where would it have gone?



NP: southern MD
Anonymous
Post 01/30/2025 08:50     Subject: Plane crash DCA?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It’s chaos in every single branch of the government right now. But sure blame the airport.


This is human error, not the government’s fault. But how can you not put some blame on the airport? It’s literally their job to manage planes landing. Saying to the helicopter “do you see the plane” when there are multiple close by planes, including one close enough to crash into them, seems like mismanagement of air traffic to me


By number or some other identifier that uniquely identifies them in context ("the CJR").

The helicopter pilot wasn't skilled with night flying under visual rules.
The flight patterns necessarily take planes and helicopters close to each other. This only works if you can trust the helicopter flying under visual rules to see approaching aircraft. Maybe that's an unfair and unrealistic expectation, but expecting ATC to handle this any other way than they did is wholly impractical.


When multiple planes are in the sky close together, how is it that ATC communicates and distinguishes them to each other? If ATC called the helicopter to ask if they had visual of “the plane,” and the helicopter said yes, but it was a different plane, then ATC made in error in not effectively communicating and distinguishing the threat.


True.