jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. In our society explanation has a connotation that something is explicable or understandable. Many of us grasp there is a context - hatred and evil - but the actions themselves are inexplicable and have zero justification.

I agree with this.

I'd take it a little further, though, and say that I disagree with Muslima when she keeps putting 100% of the "explanation" on french society, the headgear ban., et cetera. Let me be clear that I agree that racism and bigotry absolutely do exist in France (and in other countries) and have caused understandable anger and frustration among Muslims.

Lots of groups facing bigotry, however, have responded with passive resistance, through the ballot box and through the courts systems.

Some of the "explanation" also lies in
1. A victimhood mentality that looks to others to change themselves. I read French papers, and you usually see more passive protests against Le Pen-type bigotry from white Liberation readers than you do from Muslims themselves.
2. The assassins were following a twisted, murderous version of Islam. Not only do they think violence is justified, they also see a political payoff in attacks like this.
3. High youth unemployment is a problem in France, and it's worse among North Africans.
4. Lack of attractive alternatives to radical Islam. Imams and French society are working to show teenagers attractive alternatives to radical Islam, but so far their efforts clearly haven't worked all that well. Not sure what the solution is.

This is a great response, but contradicts both the post you quote and your agreement with that post. There is more that can be said, particularly about how groups like AQAP are presenting such attractive alternatives. I may post about that later.

Huh? I'm saying that Muslima's "explanation" is some part, but not all, of a larger picture that includes multiple explanations. These various explanations are not mutually exclusive and they can all be true. I know you want to defend Muslima's perspectives at all costs, but here you're twisting yourself into defending her narrow victimhood perspective while ignoring additional explanations that give a larger picture.

I'm not twisting myself at all. You agreed with a post saying the actions are inexplicable and then offered an explanation. That's pretty twisty. I thought you were right on target otherwise.

No. You are being very twisty when you say I "agreed with the post." I disagreed with the post's suggestion that bigotry was the whole explanation. You know that. You also know that providing additional "explanations" for the attack was an elaboration of my position instead of a contradiction.

I hope this is beneath you, because it's pretty crappy of you to play rhetorical games like this and then accuse me as "twisting" and "contradicting" myself.

Or, maybe you think Muslima's victimhood explanation is the only valid explanation for the CH violence. If so, don't just call me names and play transparent rhetorical games. Explain why it's not also about the lousy economy, the radicalization of Muslim youth, or Muslim's disengagement from France's political system.

Anonymous wrote:
So Jeff, I know you'll find a new way to say that Muslima is right and I'm wrong, even if it's just accusing me again of non-existent contradictions. I'm starting to think you're really full of it. Have at it.

I am sorry that this has become an issue. I was trying to compliment you on your post. The only thing I might accuse you of is poor reading skills. You quoted a post that said, "these actions are inexplicable". You wrote, "I agree". Then, you provided an explanation. How can you both agree that the actions are inexplicable and then explain them? It's not a big deal and I shouldn't have mentioned it. I was simply confused by your post because of this contradiction.

This has nothing to do with Muslima and I don't understand your obsession with her. I didn't mention her once.

Muslima, Jeff: What's the explanation for Boko Haram razing entire villages the other day, killing at least 2000, mostly kids, women and elderly? To date, they are estimating at killing 10k. What is the explanation for that? Is it the same as killing a dozen journalists and cartoonists? The same as 4 patrons at a kosher market? Or are all Islamic radicals killing for different reasons?

OK. Let's summarize to make it clear that French bigotry belongs in the list of explanations, but is not the entire list.

1. French bigotry and racism.
2. Lack of constructive Muslim engagement with the political system to remedy said bigotry and racism.
3. Twisted and murderous version of Islam.
4. High unemployment among all French youth, but especially among Muslims = boredom and poverty
5. Lack of attractive alternatives to radical Islam.
6. Lack of broad Muslim dialogue about things like images, apostasy, and other things that contributed to CH.. This is the Reformation issue and yes, I'm going there. Sure, plenty of Muslims have said in recent days that it's not OK to kill for these things. But that's not the same thing as asking whether the ban on images is really Islam, or it they has a place in the 21st century. The conversation is taking place seems confined to theologians with years of schooling and fluent Arabic, because these are traditionally the men who decide such theological issues, but these guys by the nature of their training and jobs are very conservative.
6. Muslim victimhood mentality that looks to others to change themselves. Hello, Muslima! You're a broken record of "Islam is peaceful, these guys weren't real Muslims, but anyway they were provoked by bigotry." I haven't seen a single call from Muslima, not one single call from you, for Muslims themselves to do anything themselves. Like, for example, step up efforts to stop the radicalization of Muslim youth, or have a larger dialogue about apostasy and other rules that were of concern in the CH case, or for massive Muslim passive resistence efforts such as marches against bigotry and racism. I can't speak for others, but I suspect this is why others are so frustrated with you.

So Jeff, I know you'll find a new way to say that Muslima is right and I'm wrong, even if it's just accusing me again of non-existent contradictions. I'm starting to think you're really full of it. Have at it.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. In our society explanation has a connotation that something is explicable or understandable. Many of us grasp there is a context - hatred and evil - but the actions themselves are inexplicable and have zero justification.

I agree with this.

I'd take it a little further, though, and say that I disagree with Muslima when she keeps putting 100% of the "explanation" on french society, the headgear ban., et cetera. Let me be clear that I agree that racism and bigotry absolutely do exist in France (and in other countries) and have caused understandable anger and frustration among Muslims.

Lots of groups facing bigotry, however, have responded with passive resistance, through the ballot box and through the courts systems.

Some of the "explanation" also lies in
1. A victimhood mentality that looks to others to change themselves. I read French papers, and you usually see more passive protests against Le Pen-type bigotry from white Liberation readers than you do from Muslims themselves.
2. The assassins were following a twisted, murderous version of Islam. Not only do they think violence is justified, they also see a political payoff in attacks like this.
3. High youth unemployment is a problem in France, and it's worse among North Africans.
4. Lack of attractive alternatives to radical Islam. Imams and French society are working to show teenagers attractive alternatives to radical Islam, but so far their efforts clearly haven't worked all that well. Not sure what the solution is.

This is a great response, but contradicts both the post you quote and your agreement with that post. There is more that can be said, particularly about how groups like AQAP are presenting such attractive alternatives. I may post about that later.

Huh? I'm saying that Muslima's "explanation" is some part, but not all, of a larger picture that includes multiple explanations. These various explanations are not mutually exclusive and they can all be true. I know you want to defend Muslima's perspectives at all costs, but here you're twisting yourself into defending her narrow victimhood perspective while ignoring additional explanations that give a larger picture.

I'm not twisting myself at all. You agreed with a post saying the actions are inexplicable and then offered an explanation. That's pretty twisty. I thought you were right on target otherwise.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. In our society explanation has a connotation that something is explicable or understandable. Many of us grasp there is a context - hatred and evil - but the actions themselves are inexplicable and have zero justification.

I agree with this.

I'd take it a little further, though, and say that I disagree with Muslima when she keeps putting 100% of the "explanation" on french society, the headgear ban., et cetera. Let me be clear that I agree that racism and bigotry absolutely do exist in France (and in other countries) and have caused understandable anger and frustration among Muslims.

Lots of groups facing bigotry, however, have responded with passive resistance, through the ballot box and through the courts systems.

Some of the "explanation" also lies in
1. A victimhood mentality that looks to others to change themselves. I read French papers, and you usually see more passive protests against Le Pen-type bigotry from white Liberation readers than you do from Muslims themselves.
2. The assassins were following a twisted, murderous version of Islam. Not only do they think violence is justified, they also see a political payoff in attacks like this.
3. High youth unemployment is a problem in France, and it's worse among North Africans.
4. Lack of attractive alternatives to radical Islam. Imams and French society are working to show teenagers attractive alternatives to radical Islam, but so far their efforts clearly haven't worked all that well. Not sure what the solution is.

This is a great response, but contradicts both the post you quote and your agreement with that post. There is more that can be said, particularly about how groups like AQAP are presenting such attractive alternatives. I may post about that later.

Huh? I'm saying that Muslima's "explanation" is some part, but not all, of a larger picture that includes multiple explanations. These various explanations are not mutually exclusive and they can all be true. I know you want to defend Muslima's perspectives at all costs, but here you're twisting yourself into defending her narrow victimhood perspective while ignoring additional explanations that give a larger picture.

8:12. I should probably add

5. Lack of constructive Muslim engagement with the political system. Sure, some are engaged. But lots more seem content to grumble about their unhappiness while never leaving the banlieues. Where are the Selma marches, the sit-ins?

Muslims are almost 10% of France's population, and growing. Even if polls consistently show that 25% are atheist and many more aren't all that into their religion, they all face racial discrimination. You'd think a block this size would be able to find a constructive way to play a political role in society.

So to re-iterate, Muslima needs to move off this victim mentality that says the "explanation" is all somebody else's fault.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course there is no justification, but there is an explanation

Haven't posted much on this thread, but I have been reading it. You just lost any credibility you thought you had.

Could someone please explain what is wrong with Muslima's statement? Why wouldn't there be an explanation? I assume that nobody here would think that the explanation provides a justification, but understanding why this atrocity occurred could be useful in preventing future attacks.

I agree. Why shouldn't there be an explanation, as incredible or nonsensical as it may be? We need to understand why these events happen. Nobody disagrees that there is no justification for this horrible event. But the explanation is important.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:. In our society explanation has a connotation that something is explicable or understandable. Many of us grasp there is a context - hatred and evil - but the actions themselves are inexplicable and have zero justification.

I agree with this.

I'd take it a little further, though, and say that I disagree with Muslima when she keeps putting 100% of the "explanation" on french society, the headgear ban., et cetera. Let me be clear that I agree that racism and bigotry absolutely do exist in France (and in other countries) and have caused understandable anger and frustration among Muslims.

Lots of groups facing bigotry, however, have responded with passive resistance, through the ballot box and through the courts systems.

Some of the "explanation" also lies in
1. A victimhood mentality that looks to others to change themselves. I read French papers, and you usually see more passive protests against Le Pen-type bigotry from white Liberation readers than you do from Muslims themselves.
2. The assassins were following a twisted, murderous version of Islam. Not only do they think violence is justified, they also see a political payoff in attacks like this.
3. High youth unemployment is a problem in France, and it's worse among North Africans.
4. Lack of attractive alternatives to radical Islam. Imams and French society are working to show teenagers attractive alternatives to radical Islam, but so far their efforts clearly haven't worked all that well. Not sure what the solution is.

This is a great response, but contradicts both the post you quote and your agreement with that post. There is more that can be said, particularly about how groups like AQAP are presenting such attractive alternatives. I may post about that later.

Anonymous wrote:. In our society explanation has a connotation that something is explicable or understandable. Many of us grasp there is a context - hatred and evil - but the actions themselves are inexplicable and have zero justification.

I agree with this.

I'd take it a little further, though, and say that I disagree with Muslima when she keeps putting 100% of the "explanation" on french society, the headgear ban., et cetera. Let me be clear that I agree that racism and bigotry absolutely do exist in France (and in other countries) and have caused understandable anger and frustration among Muslims.

Lots of groups facing bigotry, however, have responded with passive resistance, through the ballot box and through the courts systems.

Some of the "explanation" also lies in
1. A victimhood mentality that looks to others to change themselves. I read French papers, and you usually see more passive protests against Le Pen-type bigotry from white Liberation readers than you do from Muslims themselves.
2. The assassins were following a twisted, murderous version of Islam. Not only do they think violence is justified, they also see a political payoff in attacks like this.
3. High youth unemployment is a problem in France, and it's worse among North Africans.
4. Lack of attractive alternatives to radical Islam. Imams and French society are working to show teenagers attractive alternatives to radical Islam, but so far their efforts clearly haven't worked all that well. Not sure what the solution is.

Anonymous wrote:

Of course there is no justification, but there is an explanation

Haven't posted much on this thread, but I have been reading it. You just lost any credibility you thought you had.

Could someone please explain what is wrong with Muslima's statement? Why wouldn't there be an explanation? I assume that nobody here would think that the explanation provides a justification, but understanding why this atrocity occurred could be useful in preventing future attacks.

Anonymous wrote:

Of course there is no justification, but there is an explanation

Haven't posted much on this thread, but I have been reading it. You just lost any credibility you thought you had.

I stopped reading Muslima’s posts months ago. Nothing but a bunch of propaganda.
She is free to post - and I am free to choose not to read the drivel.

Of course there is no justification, but there is an explanation

Haven't posted much on this thread, but I have been reading it. You just lost any credibility you thought you had.

. In our society explanation has a connotation that something is explicable or understandable. Many of us grasp there is a context - hatred and evil - but the actions themselves are inexplicable and have zero justification.

Cool beans