Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Moms who could easily afford to stay at home, but choose to work full time and pay someone else to do the mothering for them.

+1

But of course you wouldn't think to say the same for a dad, right?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm curious why so many people are opposed to veganism and not vegetarianism. Do you find that vegans tend to be more self-righteous about their views?

I do find that many Vegans tend to be more self righteous and vocal about all of their opinions.

"Of COURSE we didn't vaccinate or circumcise Micah and we don't do screen time and he only plays with wood toys..."

I find that Veganism is a very socially isolating choice and for a certain type of person a petulant brand of attention seeking. Think of a 16 year old girl saying, "I will ONLY wear pleather because cows DIED to make those shoes" or "I don't eat anything with a FACE!" (and posting this on instagram with an accompanying lamb picture).

I also have known many eating disordered women that hide out in Veganism and then obsessively quiz the waiter at the restaurant "Are you sure there is absoloutely no butter in the sautéed kale platter?

I just find it kind exhausting to spend time with someone who must devote so much energy to controlling their intake. Meanwhile, they go home and eat an entire tub of soy ice cream later.

Anonymous wrote:Ok, I'll bite:

Black people who think they are the only ones who have ever been oppressed.

Black people who actively oppress gay people -- voting against gay marriage, gay adoption, etc.

Black people who recite examples of historical oppression that have long been outlawed, while supporting the continued legal oppression of gay people here, now, today.

Black people who fail to realize there are gay black people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who hate ALL organized religion because they choose to apply unfair sweeping assumptions that ALL organized religion is bad, woman-hating, patriarchal, Republican and backward.

Name one that isn't.

Unitarian Universalism

Ethical Culture

I'm not Christian but I think the United Church of Christ is pretty forward thinking.

These are people who just don't have the balls to be atheists. I have never heard of the other two.

Religion is antiquated. I have no idea why people still do it. It is like they cannot deal with the fact that there is no meaning to life, no one is in charge, and there is no reward for being a good person or no punishment for being a bad person. All religion is full of hatred for women. All!

You know not that of which you speak. My reason for being a UU is that I suspect there is a higher power, I just don't pretend that I *know* anything about it. I'm not an atheist. I'm a hopeful agnostic.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who hate ALL organized religion because they choose to apply unfair sweeping assumptions that ALL organized religion is bad, woman-hating, patriarchal, Republican and backward.

Name one that isn't.

Unitarian Universalism

Ethical Culture

I'm not Christian but I think the United Church of Christ is pretty forward thinking.

These are people who just don't have the balls to be atheists. I have never heard of the other two.

Religion is antiquated. I have no idea why people still do it. It is like they cannot deal with the fact that there is no meaning to life, no one is in charge, and there is no reward for being a good person or no punishment for being a bad person. All religion is full of hatred for women. All!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm anti IVF because I think it's wasteful to spend tens of thousands of dollars on getting pregnant when there are already children here who need homes. But if you have the money, it's your body, your family, your life. Do what you want.

Alright, I have to stick up for the IVF crowd (and I didn't even do IVF, so I have no dog in this fight). For many fortunate people, their insurance pays for IVF or other fertility treatments, therefore they have very few costs to bear. Of course, there are some people who must pay out of pocket, and yes, that can cost a lot. Both domestic and international adoption is changing...the standard for a domestic one is open adoption (in whatever degree of openess) and the expectant mom picks the adoptive parents. Of course, because the baby isn't born and relinquished yet, making her an expectant mom and not a birth mom at that point, she has the right to change her mind and decide to parent. So btwn having an expectant mom pick you AND then have her actually decide to place...well, that can take a long time. People can wait years. With international adoption, many countries are closed or timelines, like Korea and China, are pretty slow. Again, it could take years. With either kind of adoption, it could take years or it could be quick. It's not as straightforward and reliable as it used to be.

We adopted internationally and it was the right choice for us- no doubt about it. However, I can completely understand why some people choose to pursue fertility treatments that could take less time and money than adoption. I also understand that some people want a bio connection to their kids- I bet the great majority of people do even fertile people. Otherwise, you as a fertile person would've adopted and not had bio children, no?? Also, depending on mental health or physical health (or income), some people don't qualify for an international adoption.

I do wish that more people would consider adoption, but all you can ask is that they genuinely consider it, and if they decide for whatever reason it's not right for them, then that's good they considered and decided against it. Personally, we did not pursue IVF for many reasons, but as long as people who do don't make derogatory remarks about adoption and adoptees, then I have no beef with IVF.

Signed, an adoptee and adoptive parent

I'm the PP you quoted. I haven't previously been bashing IVF and I don't have any weird ideas that women who can't get pregnant shouldn't because of evolution. I agree with you that adoption comes with its own issues and that it is not for everyone. What about people who buy a donor egg, donor sperm, and hire a surrogate? At that point, wouldn't it be better to just adopt a kid?

I haven't been contributing to this conversation, but re: what you said about donor egg/sperm/uterus, yes, at that point, I think ART is going too far. At that point, it becomes manufacturing a specific child - why did you choose THOSE eggs and sperm? To get a baby that looked a particular way? (Obvious rhetorical question)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm anti IVF because I think it's wasteful to spend tens of thousands of dollars on getting pregnant when there are already children here who need homes. But if you have the money, it's your body, your family, your life. Do what you want.

Alright, I have to stick up for the IVF crowd (and I didn't even do IVF, so I have no dog in this fight). For many fortunate people, their insurance pays for IVF or other fertility treatments, therefore they have very few costs to bear. Of course, there are some people who must pay out of pocket, and yes, that can cost a lot. Both domestic and international adoption is changing...the standard for a domestic one is open adoption (in whatever degree of openess) and the expectant mom picks the adoptive parents. Of course, because the baby isn't born and relinquished yet, making her an expectant mom and not a birth mom at that point, she has the right to change her mind and decide to parent. So btwn having an expectant mom pick you AND then have her actually decide to place...well, that can take a long time. People can wait years. With international adoption, many countries are closed or timelines, like Korea and China, are pretty slow. Again, it could take years. With either kind of adoption, it could take years or it could be quick. It's not as straightforward and reliable as it used to be.

We adopted internationally and it was the right choice for us- no doubt about it. However, I can completely understand why some people choose to pursue fertility treatments that could take less time and money than adoption. I also understand that some people want a bio connection to their kids- I bet the great majority of people do even fertile people. Otherwise, you as a fertile person would've adopted and not had bio children, no?? Also, depending on mental health or physical health (or income), some people don't qualify for an international adoption.

I do wish that more people would consider adoption, but all you can ask is that they genuinely consider it, and if they decide for whatever reason it's not right for them, then that's good they considered and decided against it. Personally, we did not pursue IVF for many reasons, but as long as people who do don't make derogatory remarks about adoption and adoptees, then I have no beef with IVF.

Signed, an adoptee and adoptive parent

I'm the PP you quoted. I haven't previously been bashing IVF and I don't have any weird ideas that women who can't get pregnant shouldn't because of evolution. I agree with you that adoption comes with its own issues and that it is not for everyone. What about people who buy a donor egg, donor sperm, and hire a surrogate? At that point, wouldn't it be better to just adopt a kid?

DH and I paid over $35K and two years trying to adopt an older special needs child and had NO luck - the country we were working with closed foreign adoptions shortly after our application was approved. You don't get a refund - all that money was lost not to mention the terrible sorrow of "losing" a child that we had grown deeply connected to. We then went the domestic adoption route, only to have the heartbreak of the birth mother deciding after the baby was born that she wanted to keep her child (a decision we understood, but deeply disappointing for us, nonetheless). We eventually went the IVF route because it was FREE (my insurance covered the procedure and the meds) and less than four months after starting the process I was pregnant with my daughter.

When I hear people bashing IVF and/or holding up adoption as a piece of cake I instantly recognize them as being ignorant as to what adoption really entails and/or really sheltered from the heatbreak that many of us face as part of the adoption process. I can't imagine why anyone would resent or judge another person for trying to build their family in whatever way they can and choose to follow. It's nothing short of twisted.