Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 13:36     Subject: Re:Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most teams require the coach to use ranked times for individual events too? That had always been our team policy but we have a new coach and he skipped a swimmer in one event (but not another event) for today’s meet. And not even back to back events - he skipped her in free and is swimming her in breast. Seems like it would be terrible for morale.


You don't always swim the fastest swimmer since you are limited on events. Coaches swim the top swimmers in each stroke/age/gender which is usually the top six. If you know the other team has a faster swimmer and you can't pick up points with your fastest swimmer, you might move them to other strokes and swim one of your slower swimmers - but still top six generally.


This. In DDs age group, the same two swimmers are the top two in all four strokes, and another swimmer is #3 in three of them, #4 in the fourth. But each kid can only swim two strokes, so when putting together the line up for a meet, the coach is going to have to skip someone somewhere and move down to #s 4-6. Where that happens can change week to week as the coach looks at the best way to earn points against the other team. As pp said, if it's highly unlikely that even the best swimmer will score in one stroke it makes sense to move them somewhere they have a better chance.


Yep. This is where new parents always get confused. Billy might be the fastest in X but the other team has Jonny and he is faster than Billy. Billy can be used in stroke Y and pick up points there. You can use a throw away againt Jonny, and maybe pick up 2nd or 3rd. It gets more interesting when you know a team has a strong cadre of swimmers in a stroke you might throw points. The seeding is complicated and involves a lot of data and looking at the team you are swimming against.
Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 12:23     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1 Big difference between year round swimmers who participate in mentoring or coaching other kids, participating in team events like pep rallies and might not swim a lot but are otherwise engaged with the team versus... kids who don't do any of that and just do the Saturday A meets.



Maybe, but I got to say, as the parent of an 18 year old coach who practices exclusively with summer club but is obviously very involved with summer team as a junior coach. Should she not swim at the A meets? This arbitrary judgment some of you want to apply to decide who is a "good enough summer team member is absurd." it's "competitive swimming," the fastest swimmers will swim the A meets. It's pretty simple. This is not a "trophy for trying" situation. Furthermore, you may not see the whole picture if you have not known these kids for years. Things change over time, their interests change, they get jobs, take driver's ed, take summer school, go to sleep away camp, become camp counselors. I don't see any reason to "kick them off the island" when this stuff happens. The summer team community is important to many of them, even if they just dabble in and out for a few years and don't want to give it up because the memories are important. So what??? They aren't taking anything from your kids that they haven't earned by being faster. Being faster is the criteria for swimming at A meets. I don't think you'll find many pools that use another criteria, but feel free to create your own club that assigns lanes based on practice attendance. (I'm not sure enough parents would agree with you to form a team, but maybe there are like-minded folks out there).


B meet swimmers haven’t been kicked off the island. Same community, same team, different speeds.


Agreed, I was referring to the suggestion above that kids that attend their club practices and don't swim at summer team practices aren't really team members and therefore shouldn't be allowed to swim at meets. B meet swimmers who miss practice for any reason are still free to show up at swim at meets and swim. In my view, summer swim practice is optional for all. You participate as much or as little as you want. You take vacation, you enroll in camp some weeks, you attend club swim practices. None of that makes you a "bad community member" that should disqualify you from participating in meets.
Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 11:16     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1 Big difference between year round swimmers who participate in mentoring or coaching other kids, participating in team events like pep rallies and might not swim a lot but are otherwise engaged with the team versus... kids who don't do any of that and just do the Saturday A meets.



Maybe, but I got to say, as the parent of an 18 year old coach who practices exclusively with summer club but is obviously very involved with summer team as a junior coach. Should she not swim at the A meets? This arbitrary judgment some of you want to apply to decide who is a "good enough summer team member is absurd." it's "competitive swimming," the fastest swimmers will swim the A meets. It's pretty simple. This is not a "trophy for trying" situation. Furthermore, you may not see the whole picture if you have not known these kids for years. Things change over time, their interests change, they get jobs, take driver's ed, take summer school, go to sleep away camp, become camp counselors. I don't see any reason to "kick them off the island" when this stuff happens. The summer team community is important to many of them, even if they just dabble in and out for a few years and don't want to give it up because the memories are important. So what??? They aren't taking anything from your kids that they haven't earned by being faster. Being faster is the criteria for swimming at A meets. I don't think you'll find many pools that use another criteria, but feel free to create your own club that assigns lanes based on practice attendance. (I'm not sure enough parents would agree with you to form a team, but maybe there are like-minded folks out there).


B meet swimmers haven’t been kicked off the island. Same community, same team, different speeds.
Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 08:38     Subject: Re:Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Do most teams require the coach to use ranked times for individual events too? That had always been our team policy but we have a new coach and he skipped a swimmer in one event (but not another event) for today’s meet. And not even back to back events - he skipped her in free and is swimming her in breast. Seems like it would be terrible for morale.


You don't always swim the fastest swimmer since you are limited on events. Coaches swim the top swimmers in each stroke/age/gender which is usually the top six. If you know the other team has a faster swimmer and you can't pick up points with your fastest swimmer, you might move them to other strokes and swim one of your slower swimmers - but still top six generally.


This. In DDs age group, the same two swimmers are the top two in all four strokes, and another swimmer is #3 in three of them, #4 in the fourth. But each kid can only swim two strokes, so when putting together the line up for a meet, the coach is going to have to skip someone somewhere and move down to #s 4-6. Where that happens can change week to week as the coach looks at the best way to earn points against the other team. As pp said, if it's highly unlikely that even the best swimmer will score in one stroke it makes sense to move them somewhere they have a better chance.
Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 07:17     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Ours does it by ladder. The problem I see is that most NVSL relays kids swim 25s, but our ladder is 50s. Plenty of kids could be higher on a 25 ladder becuase rhey have weak turns or lower endurance. Any pools have a separate 25 ladder?


I kind of think you’re grasping at straws here.


Oh I agree on this, that is why our pool holds a relay leg b meet so the coaches can get accurate 25 times for relay carnival.
Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 07:12     Subject: Re:Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:Do most teams require the coach to use ranked times for individual events too? That had always been our team policy but we have a new coach and he skipped a swimmer in one event (but not another event) for today’s meet. And not even back to back events - he skipped her in free and is swimming her in breast. Seems like it would be terrible for morale.


You don't always swim the fastest swimmer since you are limited on events. Coaches swim the top swimmers in each stroke/age/gender which is usually the top six. If you know the other team has a faster swimmer and you can't pick up points with your fastest swimmer, you might move them to other strokes and swim one of your slower swimmers - but still top six generally.
Anonymous
Post 06/22/2021 06:05     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:+1 Big difference between year round swimmers who participate in mentoring or coaching other kids, participating in team events like pep rallies and might not swim a lot but are otherwise engaged with the team versus... kids who don't do any of that and just do the Saturday A meets.



Maybe, but I got to say, as the parent of an 18 year old coach who practices exclusively with summer club but is obviously very involved with summer team as a junior coach. Should she not swim at the A meets? This arbitrary judgment some of you want to apply to decide who is a "good enough summer team member is absurd." it's "competitive swimming," the fastest swimmers will swim the A meets. It's pretty simple. This is not a "trophy for trying" situation. Furthermore, you may not see the whole picture if you have not known these kids for years. Things change over time, their interests change, they get jobs, take driver's ed, take summer school, go to sleep away camp, become camp counselors. I don't see any reason to "kick them off the island" when this stuff happens. The summer team community is important to many of them, even if they just dabble in and out for a few years and don't want to give it up because the memories are important. So what??? They aren't taking anything from your kids that they haven't earned by being faster. Being faster is the criteria for swimming at A meets. I don't think you'll find many pools that use another criteria, but feel free to create your own club that assigns lanes based on practice attendance. (I'm not sure enough parents would agree with you to form a team, but maybe there are like-minded folks out there).
Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 23:06     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
+1 Big difference between year round swimmers who participate in mentoring or coaching other kids, participating in team events like pep rallies and might not swim a lot but are otherwise engaged with the team versus... kids who don't do any of that and just do the Saturday A meets.

Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 17:07     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:I have a swimmer who never attends practice with our summer team. She swims 30-35K yards a week with her year round team and it would be detrimental to her stroke mechanics to work with a different coach. Summer coaches seem to have an unspoken agreement with year round coaches, not to "coach" those swimmers. Despite not attending practice, she participates in big/lil swimmer activities, Fun Friday pep rallies, helps at the preteam practices and other team events. Please note that DD wasn't always a strong swimmer and often placed in the B meets as a 8u or 9/10. I wouldn't have wanted my B swimmer competing in A meets until she was ready- it would have been defeating to compete with swimmers that were much more developed.


My kids almost never attend practice with their MCSL team. That's the way it has always been, there is an understanding. You're right, they do not need more yards! There is a wide variation of what a team expects/accepts in terms of participation beyond practice. We have plenty of year-round swimmers who are at the pool a lot! They are hanging out during/after practice, doing social activities, coaching pre-team, cheering and participating in B meet spirit activities, etc. They are absolutely "part of the team" and don't just fly in for a Saturday morning meet.

I have to disagree with your anti-coaching stance though. If you have good quality summer coaches (and many MCSL teams do, many of them are club coaches), it is awesome to have another coach look at something from a different perspective or even use different words to make the exact same correction. Sometimes it clicks hearing it a different way, or watching someone else in the pool who isn't in your regular training group. I saw a coach working with my kid after a race Saturday, and I was thrilled that she was getting that one-on-one coaching.
Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 15:46     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
I have a swimmer who never attends practice with our summer team. She swims 30-35K yards a week with her year round team and it would be detrimental to her stroke mechanics to work with a different coach. Summer coaches seem to have an unspoken agreement with year round coaches, not to "coach" those swimmers. Despite not attending practice, she participates in big/lil swimmer activities, Fun Friday pep rallies, helps at the preteam practices and other team events. Please note that DD wasn't always a strong swimmer and often placed in the B meets as a 8u or 9/10. I wouldn't have wanted my B swimmer competing in A meets until she was ready- it would have been defeating to compete with swimmers that were much more developed.
Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 15:20     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:That's because your child is still making A meets. What if your child did not make any A meets because of a child who just shows up for meets?
I say this as the parent of a year round swimmer. If my child is not going to any summer swim practices that week I sign her up as an alternate for the A meets. She only swims is they need to fill a spot. This is a medium sized team and she can sometimes swim up to fill an open lane.

If she swims that week in practices she signs up for the meets like everyone else.

I have no problem with kids who swim in A meets but don't practice but think coaches should not be so strict and literal when it comes to the ladder for those swimmers either. It won't hurt them if they don't swim one meet but it might be the highlight for another child.


I think you and I are viewing the club swimmers who just come to meets differently.
In my experience- the club swimmer who just comes to meets is 1) fairly rare (e.g. maybe 2-3 kids fit this category on our 150 person team) 2) exceptionally good- will most likely take 1st place in all events they are entered in. So yes, if my child is 4th on the ladder when including the club swimmer, my child will not swim the A meet. Yes, saying the club swimmer can't swim would mean that my child would swim. It would also mean the loss of 2 first places for the team, points the team needs to win the meet.
Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 14:07     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
That's because your child is still making A meets. What if your child did not make any A meets because of a child who just shows up for meets?
I say this as the parent of a year round swimmer. If my child is not going to any summer swim practices that week I sign her up as an alternate for the A meets. She only swims is they need to fill a spot. This is a medium sized team and she can sometimes swim up to fill an open lane.

If she swims that week in practices she signs up for the meets like everyone else.

I have no problem with kids who swim in A meets but don't practice but think coaches should not be so strict and literal when it comes to the ladder for those swimmers either. It won't hurt them if they don't swim one meet but it might be the highlight for another child.
Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 13:47     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1 we have swimmers who don’t do practice but do early morning NCAP and they still do A meets.


Our coach reserves the right to sub these players out for swimmers who actually do summer swim team. I am fine with that, and I think most other parents on our team feel the same way. It doesn't happen at every meet but this gives a chance for the swimmers who work hard and improve but don't do year-round swim to have that A meet experience.


I think they’re part of the team. A lot of the older ones coach and the younger ones still participate in all of the team stuff that comes with a meets. They are going to earlier and hard practices, so it’s not like they’re lazy


This definitely dives into the deeper question of what it means to be part of a team. When my son hit 3rd grade and travel soccer began, their star player showed up for maybe 3 rec games and never any practices, yet always got playing time since he was the best player. At the time the boys didn't mind since they won when Larlo played, but he was absent for every other practice, scrimmage and game. They liked to win, but it also meant one more kid was on the bench when Larlo was there, even if that kid had been working hard week in and week out as part of this team. It actually hurt them a bit mentally too, more than once one of them would say "well, we're going to lose since Larlo isn't here".

If a child shows up only for six Saturday morning A meets but no other practices or meets, is that child really part of the team? He or she is clearly a dedicated swimmer, but not necessarily an integral and dedicated part of the summer swim team. I don't think it's unreasonable for coaches to take that into consideration. It's always going to be balanced by the reality that those kids are also probably incredibly fast and strong, so it's advantageous to the team to let them swim, but that's a question of priorities for the summer team.


FWIW- as a parent of children who are good rec travel players, and who sometimes swim the 3rd lane of A meets, but are not stars by any stretch of the imagination- I don't think the club swimmer and the travel soccer player playing rec are analogous. Swimming is an individual objective sport. Yes, our swim team is fun and does team bldg activities- but I have no problem with the fastest kids being the ones to swim in A meets, regardless of their 'team' attendance.
Soccer is a team sport. It hurts the rest of the team when a kid is not there for practices. They don't learn how to play together, etc. My DS rec team has been basically destroyed with kids playing ADP/ Travel and thus not coming to practice. (My belief in the competitiveness of those programs has also been destroyed b/c the kids playing ADP/Travel do not appear to be any better than the rest of the team.) I think rec coaches should not have to play kids who don't come to practice.
Anonymous
Post 06/21/2021 11:46     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1 we have swimmers who don’t do practice but do early morning NCAP and they still do A meets.


Our coach reserves the right to sub these players out for swimmers who actually do summer swim team. I am fine with that, and I think most other parents on our team feel the same way. It doesn't happen at every meet but this gives a chance for the swimmers who work hard and improve but don't do year-round swim to have that A meet experience.


I think they’re part of the team. A lot of the older ones coach and the younger ones still participate in all of the team stuff that comes with a meets. They are going to earlier and hard practices, so it’s not like they’re lazy


This definitely dives into the deeper question of what it means to be part of a team. When my son hit 3rd grade and travel soccer began, their star player showed up for maybe 3 rec games and never any practices, yet always got playing time since he was the best player. At the time the boys didn't mind since they won when Larlo played, but he was absent for every other practice, scrimmage and game. They liked to win, but it also meant one more kid was on the bench when Larlo was there, even if that kid had been working hard week in and week out as part of this team. It actually hurt them a bit mentally too, more than once one of them would say "well, we're going to lose since Larlo isn't here".

If a child shows up only for six Saturday morning A meets but no other practices or meets, is that child really part of the team? He or she is clearly a dedicated swimmer, but not necessarily an integral and dedicated part of the summer swim team. I don't think it's unreasonable for coaches to take that into consideration. It's always going to be balanced by the reality that those kids are also probably incredibly fast and strong, so it's advantageous to the team to let them swim, but that's a question of priorities for the summer team.
Anonymous
Post 06/20/2021 22:27     Subject: Swim Meet Relay Policy? What is your summer teams relay policy?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:+1 we have swimmers who don’t do practice but do early morning NCAP and they still do A meets.


Our coach reserves the right to sub these players out for swimmers who actually do summer swim team. I am fine with that, and I think most other parents on our team feel the same way. It doesn't happen at every meet but this gives a chance for the swimmers who work hard and improve but don't do year-round swim to have that A meet experience.


I think they’re part of the team. A lot of the older ones coach and the younger ones still participate in all of the team stuff that comes with a meets. They are going to earlier and hard practices, so it’s not like they’re lazy[/quote

But it's not like they are actually participating in the practices with everyone else on the summer swim team either. I think the kids who work really hard in the summer and may have times that are close to those who do year-round swim and do not attend practices could use an opportunity to swim A meets sometimes. I didn't say always, just sometimes.



That is what b meets are for....