Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Looks like the keyboard warrior got a little butt hurt. Nobody cares about the little games you play in the dojo. We are talking about the legal ramifications of bringing a gun to a fist fight. That is going to be a tough one to justify.

I’m not butthurt at all. I’m just trying to explain to you that there is no functional difference between a “fist fight” (your word, not mine) and using a gun. Because you can’t seem to wrap your head around the reality that getting into a fist fight with someone could very likely leave you just as dead as if they’d pulled a gun and shot you. A punch or kick from someone with training is absolutely as lethal as a bullet. Frankly, I’m not sure why seem to have such difficulty understanding this.

Oh, and it’s not a Dojo. Dojo’s are for eastern disciplines. You’ve been watching too many seasons of Karate Kid. Step away from the NetFlix.

+1

The second fist fight started being being discussed all I could think of was that Senate records dude who was drunk and running his mouth at The Scarlett Oak. Dude talked shit to the wrong guy and got knocked out, hitting his head on the curb as he went down. Dead.

My best friend from childhood was the bartender at some JMU bar in Harrisonburg the nigh a fight broke out. One guy gets knocked out and falls on a broken bottle on the floor of the bar. Bottle cut his neck open and he bled out before EMTs arrived. Bar was shut for a good while.

Ok fine, I’ll concede that it’s possible for someone to die from a fistfight. But dying from a gunshot is far, far worse than dying from a punch.

Did I just blow your mind?!?!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Looks like the keyboard warrior got a little butt hurt. Nobody cares about the little games you play in the dojo. We are talking about the legal ramifications of bringing a gun to a fist fight. That is going to be a tough one to justify.

I’m not butthurt at all. I’m just trying to explain to you that there is no functional difference between a “fist fight” (your word, not mine) and using a gun. Because you can’t seem to wrap your head around the reality that getting into a fist fight with someone could very likely leave you just as dead as if they’d pulled a gun and shot you. A punch or kick from someone with training is absolutely as lethal as a bullet. Frankly, I’m not sure why seem to have such difficulty understanding this.

Oh, and it’s not a Dojo. Dojo’s are for eastern disciplines. You’ve been watching too many seasons of Karate Kid. Step away from the NetFlix.

+1

The second fist fight started being being discussed all I could think of was that Senate records dude who was drunk and running his mouth at The Scarlett Oak. Dude talked shit to the wrong guy and got knocked out, hitting his head on the curb as he went down. Dead.

My best friend from childhood was the bartender at some JMU bar in Harrisonburg the nigh a fight broke out. One guy gets knocked out and falls on a broken bottle on the floor of the bar. Bottle cut his neck open and he bled out before EMTs arrived. Bar was shut for a good while.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Looks like the keyboard warrior got a little butt hurt. Nobody cares about the little games you play in the dojo. We are talking about the legal ramifications of bringing a gun to a fist fight. That is going to be a tough one to justify.

I’m not butthurt at all. I’m just trying to explain to you that there is no functional difference between a “fist fight” (your word, not mine) and using a gun. Because you can’t seem to wrap your head around the reality that getting into a fist fight with someone could very likely leave you just as dead as if they’d pulled a gun and shot you. A punch or kick from someone with training is absolutely as lethal as a bullet. Frankly, I’m not sure why seem to have such difficulty understanding this.

Oh, and it’s not a Dojo. Dojo’s are for eastern disciplines. You’ve been watching too many seasons of Karate Kid. Step away from the NetFlix.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Looks like the keyboard warrior got a little butt hurt. Nobody cares about the little games you play in the dojo. We are talking about the legal ramifications of bringing a gun to a fist fight. That is going to be a tough one to justify.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Looks like the keyboard warrior got a little butt hurt. Nobody cares about the little games you play in the dojo. We are talking about the legal ramifications of bringing a gun to a fist fight. That is going to be a tough one to justify.

Jesus, you are dim. He didn't bring a gun to a fight. He owned a gun- legally- and the fight came to him. His friend was beaten unconscious in his house.

If he doesn't get off scot free it is a travesty of justice.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Looks like the keyboard warrior got a little butt hurt. Nobody cares about the little games you play in the dojo. We are talking about the legal ramifications of bringing a gun to a fist fight. That is going to be a tough one to justify.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

I can almost absolutely, 99.9% guarantee that if you and I (hypothetically speaking, of course) were in a no-rules “fist fight” (whatever that is?), that you wouldn’t survive it. I’ve studied and competed in various MMA disciplines since I was 19. You would have zero chance against someone with a skillset even below mine. And you’d spend the last 30 seconds of your life wishing you had a gun. Because that would be the only thing (other than me exercising some restraint) capable of saving you from someone like me, if we were in a real-world fight with each other. To paraphrase Mike Tyson- “everyone has a plan, until they get kicked in the carotid sinus baroreceptor”.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

I don't know the details of the case, but good luck with that defense! It is highly unlikely that you will be killed in a fist fight. It sounds like somebody is a coward and clearly doesn't know how to fight.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Burkard wasn’t in the fight - that’s why there’s no marks on him. His friend was fighting at Burkard’s house and he was the host. He went and shot the two others in cold-blood. That’s murder not manslaughter. He’s going away for life.

A friend of Zachary Burkard, 18, of Springfield, sent the invite, the prosecutor said. When four males arrived at the home Sunday afternoon, a fistfight broke out between Burkard’s friend and one of the teenage victims in an upstairs room, the prosecutor said.

Burkard went upstairs and opened fire, hitting two of the four males who came to the home on Winding Way Court

LOL. That's an OP Ed piece, not journalism. An "invite"? Did the friend use that word? Highly unlikely, which means it's the WP writer trying to paint their own picture of what happened.

Here are the facts. People were in his home causing grievous bodily injury to his friend. He shot those committing said injuries.

He will walk.

Since when are you allowed to shoot people to death during a fistfight when you are not even the one being punched?

It is entirely legal to use deadly force to prevent potentially lethal injury to another person within your own home.

More people die from fists every year than from AR15’s. Google the FBI UCR stats if you doubt me.

Correct.

The idiotic PP you are answering thinks you need to stand by and watch your daughter get raped while yelling "Please stop!"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of the guns!!!!!

Guns are like abortion.

Don’t like abortion? Don’t get one.

But you don’t get to tell other people they can’t have one either, m’kay?

Your abortion can’t kill me or my family.

How can any of my guns kill you? Do you think they’re sentient beings capable of leaving the house on their own accord and doing whatever they please?

Then what do you need them for? To protect yourself from what? Don't you think maybe a ring camera or a home security system might be a little less aggressive and more practicall? A family member isn't going to shoot themselves in the head with a camera or a doorbell.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Get rid of the guns!!!!!

Guns are like abortion.

Don’t like abortion? Don’t get one.

But you don’t get to tell other people they can’t have one either, m’kay?

Your abortion can’t kill me or my family.

How can any of my guns kill you? Do you think they’re sentient beings capable of leaving the house on their own accord and doing whatever they please?