Anonymous
04/01/2021 10:44
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Eh, do we really want our kids to absorb the message that the purpose of life is to work as hard as possible and get into the best college possible? That is joyless and not the life I want my kids to have. They can have a good life without conducting original scientific research at 16 or being the "best" or "top."
Younger Gen X here. Judging by the millennials I know personally and the deluge of articles I’ve read about the student loan “crisis,” that’s definitely been the message their generation seemed to absorb. Whether their parents/teachers meant them to or not.
And now a lot of them are disappointed by how their careers have turned out (not as well paying or fulfilling as they thought they’d be).
Younger Gen X here too, and I agree with the PP you're quoting. I have a middle schooler, but looking at this board has honestly convinced me not to drive my kid to work as hard as possible to get into the best college possible. I want her to work hard, but within moderation, and I want her to enjoy life. I want her to know that most people don't find personal fulfillment from their careers. If she does, great! But most people have to seek fulfillment elsewhere.
I was talking with some coworkers the other day, and apparently some of us went to state colleges, some went to HYP, some went to Emory-level colleges and oh hey, we all ended up in the same place. It really doesn't matter as much as we make it.
I work in STEM field at a Fed agency. I went to a state university because my parents said they would pay in full for that and I'd have no loans. If I went OOS, I'd have to take out loans. I was able to do a teaching stipend and get a graduate degree fully paid by the State University.
I work with lots of Ivy grads/PhDs. We are all GS-14s. Many have voiced the struggle to get housing loans since both they and their spouses have so much college loan debt. They started off way behind post-grad school.
I think in some fields you definitely need the 'school backing'. If you are in a major where it's hard to find work---English, History, etc...then the University will matter. If you are in a STEM field, State Universities are fine and some like Tech's Engineering program are better than a lot of privates.
Anonymous
04/01/2021 10:07
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Eh, do we really want our kids to absorb the message that the purpose of life is to work as hard as possible and get into the best college possible? That is joyless and not the life I want my kids to have. They can have a good life without conducting original scientific research at 16 or being the "best" or "top."
This.
The problem is not kids doing the work.
The problem is setting expectation so that they think their life is over if they don't get into the "top" school (however you define it).
The problem is overprepping for SATs and making your kids take them again if they got a really good score but not a "great" score.
The problem is pushing kids into activities they don't want to do "for college applications" and leaving them no time to pursue their own hobbies or interests
The problem is telling them that a B is not good enough, even if it is the best they can do in a particular class.
The problem is pushing our kids to become the person we think they should be (grades, college, career, etc) instead of letting them make their own choices and own them.
It has been more than 10 years since "Race to Nowhere" came out, but things have not changed much if we are still having the same conversations.
This. 100% this!
It’s because more people are competing for fewer economic opportunities.
We live in an economic system that is increasingly winner takes all. And I say this as someone who is pretty close to the top (can easily pay full freight for 3 kids) but still far from being able to opt out of the rat race completely (can’t buy our kids’ way into Harvard or give them 5M + trust funds).
I say this without rancor: If you can afford full freight for 3 kids, you ARE a winner. Because our society has become so immobile, your kids are highly likely to be fine whether they run the rat race or not. They don't need to go to Harvard to succeed in life. You are one of the people guarding their spoils. You are one of the winners trying to take it all.
I am confused by the bolded assessment of PP. What would you do differently if you were in her shoes?
Anonymous
04/01/2021 01:28
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In terms of the elite schools like HPYSM, do they really have the best people? If they are taking mostly athletes, legacy, first gen and URM, are they really getting the TOP students?
Not meant to be a snarky question.
Also, those top students are going somewhere. Do you think there will emerge a middle of the road college that will eventually become elite as a result of getting these top students?
No.
How do you know? Sometimes, hear me out, there can be one person who is both a top athlete, first generation AND URM. It is just asinine to see a response to this as "no" - it racism plain and simple to make such assumptions.
Depends on how you define “top.” If you mean based upon a holistic analysis, maybe not, but based on grades and test scores, it’s not an assumption. That’s what the Harvard litigation was about.
Anonymous
04/01/2021 01:19
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:In terms of the elite schools like HPYSM, do they really have the best people? If they are taking mostly athletes, legacy, first gen and URM, are they really getting the TOP students?
Not meant to be a snarky question.
Also, those top students are going somewhere. Do you think there will emerge a middle of the road college that will eventually become elite as a result of getting these top students?
Wow, think about the unconscious bias that underlies that question.
well, affirmative action is biased. So, it's kinda hard to have a real conversation about it without playing identity politics.
Anonymous
04/01/2021 01:12
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:In terms of the elite schools like HPYSM, do they really have the best people? If they are taking mostly athletes, legacy, first gen and URM, are they really getting the TOP students?
Not meant to be a snarky question.
Also, those top students are going somewhere. Do you think there will emerge a middle of the road college that will eventually become elite as a result of getting these top students?
Wow, think about the unconscious bias that underlies that question.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 21:20
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Eh, do we really want our kids to absorb the message that the purpose of life is to work as hard as possible and get into the best college possible? That is joyless and not the life I want my kids to have. They can have a good life without conducting original scientific research at 16 or being the "best" or "top."
This.
The problem is not kids doing the work.
The problem is setting expectation so that they think their life is over if they don't get into the "top" school (however you define it).
The problem is overprepping for SATs and making your kids take them again if they got a really good score but not a "great" score.
The problem is pushing kids into activities they don't want to do "for college applications" and leaving them no time to pursue their own hobbies or interests
The problem is telling them that a B is not good enough, even if it is the best they can do in a particular class.
The problem is pushing our kids to become the person we think they should be (grades, college, career, etc) instead of letting them make their own choices and own them.
It has been more than 10 years since "Race to Nowhere" came out, but things have not changed much if we are still having the same conversations.
This. 100% this!
Ditto. Kids need to know there are plenty of schools where they can get a good start in life. Hard work in high school gives them more options and the learning and habits established are their own rewards. I encourage my kids to do ECs because they make life richer, not to get into college. And, that's reinforced by taking time myself to exercise, participate in a music group, volunteer, etc.
As a result, DS's EC resume was not impressive, but he does things he enjoys that he can do for a long time. His grades were strong and improved from 9th-12th but he didn't do AP/honors everything, opting for regular-level classes in one subject he dislikes. Happily, he's going to Virginia Tech. But he also would have been happy at U of Delaware in the honor college, which was his 2nd choice if VT didn't work out. DH and I both went to state schools for undergrad and grad school and have done well in life, I'm sure he will do well too.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 21:08
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My kid was admitted to:
UCLA
Washington & Lee
UVA
William and Mary
Miami University
American University
Christopher Newport University
Rejected from:
UC Berkeley
NYU (today)
She is extremely bitter because I won’t co-sign six figures of parent plus loans to attend UCLA. You cannot convince me it’s $120,000 better than UVA or W&M. In fact, W&M is more highly rated for undergraduate teaching (#4 in country, tied with Princeton and behind Brown, Elon and Georgia Tech, of all places).
She hears from Duke tomorrow and Brown next week. I am anticipating rejections from both.
I have tried to explain to her that her success rate is incredible and a lot of kids with better stats aren’t even getting into some places she has. But it doesn’t matter. She is fixated on selectivity percentages rather than finding a school that will be the right fit. Says she will be “miserable” going to school in Virginia. I said misery is making payments on six figures of college debt for 20-25 years.
Serenity now. Or at least better drugs...
This is on you. If you weren't willing to co-sign that's fine -- I agree with you -- but you should have made that clear to her before she even applied.
Sweetie. I did.
She applied anyway hoping for aid. I warned her it wouldn’t be forthcoming.
A lot of growing up is happening now.
So you didn't run the NPC before she applied? (Kids can't do it, you need accurate financial information).
"Sweetie", you effed up. Bigtime. You. Not her. You.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:53
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Eh, do we really want our kids to absorb the message that the purpose of life is to work as hard as possible and get into the best college possible? That is joyless and not the life I want my kids to have. They can have a good life without conducting original scientific research at 16 or being the "best" or "top."
This.
The problem is not kids doing the work.
The problem is setting expectation so that they think their life is over if they don't get into the "top" school (however you define it).
The problem is overprepping for SATs and making your kids take them again if they got a really good score but not a "great" score.
The problem is pushing kids into activities they don't want to do "for college applications" and leaving them no time to pursue their own hobbies or interests
The problem is telling them that a B is not good enough, even if it is the best they can do in a particular class.
The problem is pushing our kids to become the person we think they should be (grades, college, career, etc) instead of letting them make their own choices and own them.
It has been more than 10 years since "Race to Nowhere" came out, but things have not changed much if we are still having the same conversations.
This. 100% this!
It’s because more people are competing for fewer economic opportunities.
We live in an economic system that is increasingly winner takes all. And I say this as someone who is pretty close to the top (can easily pay full freight for 3 kids) but still far from being able to opt out of the rat race completely (can’t buy our kids’ way into Harvard or give them 5M + trust funds).
I say this without rancor: If you can afford full freight for 3 kids, you ARE a winner. Because our society has become so immobile, your kids are highly likely to be fine whether they run the rat race or not. They don't need to go to Harvard to succeed in life. You are one of the people guarding their spoils. You are one of the winners trying to take it all.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:44
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
*net price, not best price
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:43
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My kid was admitted to:
UCLA
Washington & Lee
UVA
William and Mary
Miami University
American University
Christopher Newport University
Rejected from:
UC Berkeley
NYU (today)
She is extremely bitter because I won’t co-sign six figures of parent plus loans to attend UCLA. You cannot convince me it’s $120,000 better than UVA or W&M. In fact, W&M is more highly rated for undergraduate teaching (#4 in country, tied with Princeton and behind Brown, Elon and Georgia Tech, of all places).
She hears from Duke tomorrow and Brown next week. I am anticipating rejections from both.
I have tried to explain to her that her success rate is incredible and a lot of kids with better stats aren’t even getting into some places she has. But it doesn’t matter. She is fixated on selectivity percentages rather than finding a school that will be the right fit. Says she will be “miserable” going to school in Virginia. I said misery is making payments on six figures of college debt for 20-25 years.
Serenity now. Or at least better drugs...
This is on you. If you weren't willing to co-sign that's fine -- I agree with you -- but you should have made that clear to her before she even applied.
GTFO. You never know if you're going to get a better aid package.
Why are you always "calling people out" because they wouldn't do exactly what you would? You don't seem like the sharpest tool in the box, anyhow. There are lots of reasons to make lots of different decisions. And yes, sometimes the outcomes are not perfect, but that is life. The point is not to never face any kind of difficulty. Sometimes, it's good to reach for things, see where they land, and make the best decision. It can be a growing and learning experience. It doesn't have to be... oh you handled this all wrong, you're the worst parent, I'm the best. It does not make you look like the best. It makes you look like a fool.
I'm not the first or only person to advise a parent to sit down with a child before he or she applies to college and make clear what I'm willing or able to contribute to the cost.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:43
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My kid was admitted to:
UCLA
Washington & Lee
UVA
William and Mary
Miami University
American University
Christopher Newport University
Rejected from:
UC Berkeley
NYU (today)
She is extremely bitter because I won’t co-sign six figures of parent plus loans to attend UCLA. You cannot convince me it’s $120,000 better than UVA or W&M. In fact, W&M is more highly rated for undergraduate teaching (#4 in country, tied with Princeton and behind Brown, Elon and Georgia Tech, of all places).
She hears from Duke tomorrow and Brown next week. I am anticipating rejections from both.
I have tried to explain to her that her success rate is incredible and a lot of kids with better stats aren’t even getting into some places she has. But it doesn’t matter. She is fixated on selectivity percentages rather than finding a school that will be the right fit. Says she will be “miserable” going to school in Virginia. I said misery is making payments on six figures of college debt for 20-25 years.
Serenity now. Or at least better drugs...
This is on you. If you weren't willing to co-sign that's fine -- I agree with you -- but you should have made that clear to her before she even applied.
Sweetie. I did.
She applied anyway hoping for aid. I warned her it wouldn’t be forthcoming.
A lot of growing up is happening now.
Sometimes they have to find out for themselves. You have my condolences!
But for the PP who said, "you never know when you'll get a good aid package," actually, often you do know. UCs, by state law, cannot offer merit aid to OOS students. And every parent should know what kind of need- based aid their kid is likely to get-- this can be easily guesstimated by running different schools' best price calculators and by completing the FAFSA. My guess is that this kid's UCLA outcome was completely predictable.
Part of the problem is that it's not just kids who engage in magical thinking.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:41
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:IQ is nothing without EQ
You don't seem to have EQ either judging by your posting style.
NP. ??? Saying “wah wah you too” doesn’t make you correct.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:35
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My kid was admitted to:
UCLA
Washington & Lee
UVA
William and Mary
Miami University
American University
Christopher Newport University
Rejected from:
UC Berkeley
NYU (today)
She is extremely bitter because I won’t co-sign six figures of parent plus loans to attend UCLA. You cannot convince me it’s $120,000 better than UVA or W&M. In fact, W&M is more highly rated for undergraduate teaching (#4 in country, tied with Princeton and behind Brown, Elon and Georgia Tech, of all places).
She hears from Duke tomorrow and Brown next week. I am anticipating rejections from both.
I have tried to explain to her that her success rate is incredible and a lot of kids with better stats aren’t even getting into some places she has. But it doesn’t matter. She is fixated on selectivity percentages rather than finding a school that will be the right fit. Says she will be “miserable” going to school in Virginia. I said misery is making payments on six figures of college debt for 20-25 years.
Serenity now. Or at least better drugs...
This is on you. If you weren't willing to co-sign that's fine -- I agree with you -- but you should have made that clear to her before she even applied.
Sweetie. I did.
She applied anyway hoping for aid. I warned her it wouldn’t be forthcoming.
A lot of growing up is happening now.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:29
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My kid was admitted to:
UCLA
Washington & Lee
UVA
William and Mary
Miami University
American University
Christopher Newport University
Rejected from:
UC Berkeley
NYU (today)
She is extremely bitter because I won’t co-sign six figures of parent plus loans to attend UCLA. You cannot convince me it’s $120,000 better than UVA or W&M. In fact, W&M is more highly rated for undergraduate teaching (#4 in country, tied with Princeton and behind Brown, Elon and Georgia Tech, of all places).
She hears from Duke tomorrow and Brown next week. I am anticipating rejections from both.
I have tried to explain to her that her success rate is incredible and a lot of kids with better stats aren’t even getting into some places she has. But it doesn’t matter. She is fixated on selectivity percentages rather than finding a school that will be the right fit. Says she will be “miserable” going to school in Virginia. I said misery is making payments on six figures of college debt for 20-25 years.
Serenity now. Or at least better drugs...
This is on you. If you weren't willing to co-sign that's fine -- I agree with you -- but you should have made that clear to her before she even applied.
GTFO. You never know if you're going to get a better aid package.
Why are you always "calling people out" because they wouldn't do exactly what you would? You don't seem like the sharpest tool in the box, anyhow. There are lots of reasons to make lots of different decisions. And yes, sometimes the outcomes are not perfect, but that is life. The point is not to never face any kind of difficulty. Sometimes, it's good to reach for things, see where they land, and make the best decision. It can be a growing and learning experience. It doesn't have to be... oh you handled this all wrong, you're the worst parent, I'm the best. It does not make you look like the best. It makes you look like a fool.
Hit a nerve huh?
I'm not the pp but don't think it hit a nerve, they are making a salient point. The bolded text is pathetic.
Anonymous
03/31/2021 20:25
Subject: s/o this brutal admissions year
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My kid was admitted to:
UCLA
Washington & Lee
UVA
William and Mary
Miami University
American University
Christopher Newport University
Rejected from:
UC Berkeley
NYU (today)
She is extremely bitter because I won’t co-sign six figures of parent plus loans to attend UCLA. You cannot convince me it’s $120,000 better than UVA or W&M. In fact, W&M is more highlyThe rated for undergraduate teaching (#4 in country, tied with Princeton and behind Brown, Elon and Georgia Tech, of all places).
She hears from Duke tomorrow and Brown next week. I am anticipating rejections from both.
I have tried to explain to her that her success rate is incredible and a lot of kids with better stats aren’t even getting into some places she has. But it doesn’t matter. She is fixated on selectivity percentages rather than finding a school that will be the right fit. Says she will be “miserable” going to school in Virginia. I said misery is making payments on six figures of college debt for 20-25 years.
Serenity now. Or at least better drugs...
My neighbor is going through this exact same scenario. He is not paying for UCLA and didn’t even know his DC applied! DC is very upset. Oh well.
No UC is with $120,000. Your kid should take UVA over UCLA.
Pp here. $120k is the DIFFERENTIAL. OOS and room and board to UCLA is closer to $225k
Grass is not always greener on the other side. My Cali kid got into several UC schools with full scholarship. I told her I am not footing the room and board charges, if she chooses a UC school. UCs were fallbacks, in case she didn’t get into SLACs. DCUM is full of horror stories of high-stat kids denied at UVA. I think UVA is fine, just as good as UCLA, UC Berkeley.