Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 20:26     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
I haven't read through all of the comments, but I don't think it matters at all if most Americans haven't heard of these schools. Urban professionals, at least on the east coast, have heard of them, and those are the people with whom your son is most likely to be working as an adult. I regard them favorably, probably the equivalent of good American schools a tier down from the Ivies and their peers.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 20:18     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:McGill has a great reputation and would be a plus in my workplace. McGill is a serious place.

Saint Andrew's grads likely wouldn't get interviewed. Rick kids going on an extended field trip. Doesn't seem serious at all.


+1

I really like McGill. I lived in Montreal and have friends who went there. Really good place. Toronto, Queens, and UBC are solid, too. St. Andrews seems like a finishing school for kids who want to make study abroad their entire personality; I haven't been very impressed with the people I know who went there. That's doubly true for grad programs in the UK, even LSE; it seems like they'll take anyone who can pay in full. Now, if you're an American who was admitted to Oxbridge directly as an undergrad, that's really impressive!


Yeah, McGill is great! But not sure why McGill being great has to include a denigration of St Andrews.

Having toured both, McGill felt more like SUNY Buffalo-- modern and uninspired with teaching delivery consisting of hundreds of kids in lecture halls, whereas St Andrews was centuries of history and inspiration, with a close knit academic environment and superb student experience, rigorous with support.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 20:13     Subject: Re:How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:McGill rates in my book.
St Andrews not so much. I’d put Edinburgh ahead of it. something like 20 percent of St. Andrews students are American now. Money grab. I’m not a fan of UK uni system at all. Ultimately I think it depends on what your DC wants to do. If further study, then Uk uni might make sense. If it’s about getting recruited and work in US after undergrad, well US opportunities are recruited for on US campuses. The only recruitment done in UK is for UK roles, so most American kids will need a sponsored visa. Also wages in UK are about 2/3 what they are in America so why would you..




Agree. Without commenting on whether a kid should go to school in Scotland vs. USA, I'd go Edinburgh all day every day over St. Andrews for serious students.

DCUM likes St. Andrews because DCUM is full of affluent people who seek the country clubby preppy Our Kind of People atmosphere for their ultra-tutored kids. See also Elon, Tulane, Bowdoin, U. of Denver, Trinity ...


Do you actually have knowledge of schools in the UK? Because it seems like you're just postulating

Rankings don't tell everything, but St Andrews is literally ranked higher than Edinburgh both nationally and in every single subject area. In 2021 St Andrews was ranked 2nd or 3rd by everyone, Edinburgh ranked 13 by the guardian. Edinburgh has higher international rankings that reflect its much larger size, but not so much the quality of departments or undergraduate experience relative to St Andrews. But look for yourself.
https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2020/sep/05/the-best-uk-universities-2021-league-table

The schools have different vibes, but majority of top student from the UK would choose St Andrews over Edi in a heartbeat. Tutorial sizes at St Andrews are much smaller than at Edinburgh, St A has a much smaller student to faculty ratio and greater opportunities for interaction and research in that regard. Wouldn't "serious students" want smaller classes and closer relationships with profs?

Sure, go to Edinburgh if you need a city or want a program St Andrews doesn't offer (no engineering, law, or visual art at StA), there are lots of reasons why a student might choose Edinburgh instead of St A. But St Andrews offers an academic and student experiences unparalleled in the UK (besides Oxbridge), and has the highest standards of entry bar Oxbridge.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 16:50     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:McGill has a great reputation and would be a plus in my workplace. McGill is a serious place.

Saint Andrew's grads likely wouldn't get interviewed. Rick kids going on an extended field trip. Doesn't seem serious at all.


+1

I really like McGill. I lived in Montreal and have friends who went there. Really good place. Toronto, Queens, and UBC are solid, too. St. Andrews seems like a finishing school for kids who want to make study abroad their entire personality; I haven't been very impressed with the people I know who went there. That's doubly true for grad programs in the UK, even LSE; it seems like they'll take anyone who can pay in full. Now, if you're an American who was admitted to Oxbridge directly as an undergrad, that's really impressive!


For some americans it's a finishing school, but you're utterly mistaken if that's your view of St Andrews. The UK and EU kids, and many (but not all) of the Americans there are all top notch, from the top of their graduating school classes. DC has St Andrews peers who turned down Ivies and MIT in favor of St A.

You're wrong to denigrate the academics, it's rigorous courses where students are forced to really independently learn the canon of their academic disciplines, as opposed to liberal arts curricula , which can be great, but sometimes are fluffy/devoid of focus. Most all St Andrews departments are ranked top 5 in the Uk, IR for example is ranked first, among some others.

For graduate outcomes, obviously it's who you know that holds substantial sway, and many St Andrews students, american or not, are well connected and thus enabled here. But students graduate from St A with great options, most of the major consulting firms and banks recruit at St Andrews, so they see the potential there. And great grad school acceptances too, probably a way larger than average proportion go on to PhDs.

McGill is great too. Visited both McG and StA with my DC. Both, even with international tuition, are cheaper than American schools of the same caliber-- I think St Andrews more so: if St Andrews were located somewhere in New England it would so easily be 75k as the ivies are, but even international tuition is in the 20k range, with living expenses, flights etc amounts to around 40k range. It's a steal if you're a family that would be full pay at top tier schools.


Ha ha! No one turns down the Ivys or MIT for St. Andrews. It is fine as a school but maybe would be ranked in the forties if it was a US university
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 16:36     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I work for an international company (non-US based) with offices all over the world. Worked with people from all over. I would take a kid from a top 30 US university over any others any day. That admission process you do not like is what makes people better executives.

Would I hire someone in US that went to one of those places? Sure. But no leg up and maybe a bias outside of DC and NY against.


You're everything that's wrong with the American undergrad system.

When excellent students get rejected from top universities, you end up hiring from a smaller pool of potentially great candidates. The people who knock on your door are the academically strong students accepted by top schools. You're not seeing, or you're perhaps rejecting, the academically strong that were passed over in favor of someone with an "interesting" profile, because that someone with an interesting profile isn't going to be successful enough to come and apply at your company.

You're shooting yourself in the foot, basically.





PP here. I don't run the American undergrad system. I am a consumer. And I have 20 years of seeing college graduates going through executive training programs. I prefer kids from US colleges. I said top 30 above but it is broader than that. LACs also. Great regionals as well. More well rounder students in the US. Sorry if that does not fit your belief. Do we hire people from UK universities in Europe, sure. Are there great people in our company from them, sure. You get a better product out of the US.


I agree with you. K-12 education is generally sub-par in the US but the US does a good job with college education. The cost is insane but it is a good product compared with most countries.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 12:49     Subject: Re:How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:McGill rates in my book.
St Andrews not so much. I’d put Edinburgh ahead of it. something like 20 percent of St. Andrews students are American now. Money grab. I’m not a fan of UK uni system at all. Ultimately I think it depends on what your DC wants to do. If further study, then Uk uni might make sense. If it’s about getting recruited and work in US after undergrad, well US opportunities are recruited for on US campuses. The only recruitment done in UK is for UK roles, so most American kids will need a sponsored visa. Also wages in UK are about 2/3 what they are in America so why would you..




Agree. Without commenting on whether a kid should go to school in Scotland vs. USA, I'd go Edinburgh all day every day over St. Andrews for serious students.

DCUM likes St. Andrews because DCUM is full of affluent people who seek the country clubby preppy Our Kind of People atmosphere for their ultra-tutored kids. See also Elon, Tulane, Bowdoin, U. of Denver, Trinity ...
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 10:02     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Yeah, the above-listed problems definitely applied to me when I did JYA! I should have thought things out more.

Back in 1994, college was so much cheaper, so my family could afford to send me overseas. It definitely caused me trouble with graduation requirements since UK study is single-subject. Not all of the courses transferred as credit for my major either. I also lost out on networking etc. for sure. I ended up graduating in August rather than May
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 09:57     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As places rich kids who couldn't get into American schools with similar pedigrees can buy their way into (especially St. Andrews, not so much McGill)


1. They're not more expensive than any 60K+ American college, for which a lot of DCUM families are already paying.

2. St Andrews ranks significantly higher than McGill, but McGill is nothing to sneeze at.

3. Stellar academics = admittance. This is a refreshing alternative for students who don't want to be played by American exceptionalism re: extra-curriculars, geographic weight, and being pushed aside for athletes, legacies and kids of big donors.



On any global university ranking I’ve read, St Andrews is way below McGill. Where have you seen it ranked higher?
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 09:15     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
I was an exchange student for a year in Germany. There were a lot of Americans who thought they had discovered some clever “hack” for college. It seemed dumb to me. They missed out on all on-campus recruiting, had no alumni network back home in Chicago or whatever, and no one back home recognized their school’s prestige. Germans themselves were sort of bemused and confused by it since American universities are well-regarded there.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 09:14     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don’t view McGill and St Andrews has being similar at all. I see McGill as educationally equivalent to a top-tier US public (Berkeley, Michigan) but with fewer undergrad amenities and a more straightforward admissions process. I see St Andrews as a place where affluent Americans send their academically unimpressive kids to escape from having them placed in the US college status hierarchy and to give them a fun college experience.


My daughter will be applying and she’s a 4.0 uw/mid 1500s student and she’s not looking at it as a safety at all.


What draws her to St Andrews?
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 09:11     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Schools like McGill and St. Andrews are seen as a clear step below the top ranked (think top 30-40 or so) schools. I'm sure you can still get a decent education at them, but I'm a little baffled as to why people seem convinced they'd give you a leg up in the job market stateside. I'm a hiring manager. It's not.

If DC wants to stay abroad or live in those countries for the mid- to long-term, go for it. Otherwise, staying in America is the wiser choice.


If you’re still here: how do you feel about Dutch and German universities? Example: the University of Amsterdam.


I don't think Americans know one way or there other. A given dutch university could be world class or equivalent of community college and I doubt most American hr departments would know the difference. I think if you go that route, the intent has to be to stay in Europe, at least while you start your career
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 09:08     Subject: How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
Anonymous wrote:Schools like McGill and St. Andrews are seen as a clear step below the top ranked (think top 30-40 or so) schools. I'm sure you can still get a decent education at them, but I'm a little baffled as to why people seem convinced they'd give you a leg up in the job market stateside. I'm a hiring manager. It's not.

If DC wants to stay abroad or live in those countries for the mid- to long-term, go for it. Otherwise, staying in America is the wiser choice.


If you’re still here: how do you feel about Dutch and German universities? Example: the University of Amsterdam.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 08:25     Subject: Re:How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
McGill rates in my book.
St Andrews not so much. I’d put Edinburgh ahead of it. something like 20 percent of St. Andrews students are American now. Money grab. I’m not a fan of UK uni system at all. Ultimately I think it depends on what your DC wants to do. If further study, then Uk uni might make sense. If it’s about getting recruited and work in US after undergrad, well US opportunities are recruited for on US campuses. The only recruitment done in UK is for UK roles, so most American kids will need a sponsored visa. Also wages in UK are about 2/3 what they are in America so why would you..


Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 08:25     Subject: Re:How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
PP. McGill, University of Toronto and University of British Columbia are highly ranked globally. I believe University of Toronto is the highest among them, with University of British Columbia and McGill after. There are also other great schools in Canada.

If your son is interested in computer science, consider University of Waterloo.
Anonymous
Post 06/08/2021 08:18     Subject: Re:How do Americans view universities abroad such as McGill, St Andrews, or similar?
OP, although this doesn't answer your question, your son should apply to schools in the United States, too--some of which are among the best in the world. Highly selective schools usually place a lot of emphasis on what he's looking for, along with considering other factors. I don't know enough about the admission processes at less selective schools to comment.