Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,

Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.

Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.

All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?

BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.

Marching band typically has to fundraise for its activities because it gets very little financial support from APS. The other two items you mention serve a population of students that is several times over the population that benefits from access to TJ, and at a lower marginal cost per student to APS. If we had unlimited funds, I would have no problem continuing to send APS students to TJ. But when we’re facing the current budget constraints, hard choices have to be made based on a cost-benefit analysis to the population as a whole. If access to TJ is that important to your family, Fairfax is a very large county with lots of housing options.

And good luck to your kid getting into TJ. No guarantees in Fairfax, either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,

Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.

Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.

All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?

BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.

Marching band typically has to fundraise for its activities because it gets very little financial support from APS. The other two items you mention serve a population of students that is several times over the population that benefits from access to TJ, and at a lower marginal cost per student to APS. If we had unlimited funds, I would have no problem continuing to send APS students to TJ. But when we’re facing the current budget constraints, hard choices have to be made based on a cost-benefit analysis to the population as a whole. If access to TJ is that important to your family, Fairfax is a very large county with lots of housing options.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,

Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.

Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.

All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?

BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

I don’t think you understand how the budget works. APS expects to save $300k next year by phasing out TJ funding despite still having to pay the costs you cited. Transportation costs would be an additional savings to APS once the grandfathered students have graduated.

People have provided you with several arguments for why TJ funding should be cut before other line items, repeatedly. That you disagree with them doesn’t mean arguments haven’t been provided.

The only arguments I've seen are:
--the only kids who get in are the ones whose parents test-prep
--people have the option to move to Fairfax
--its elitist

None of those are arguments for why TJ funding should be cut instead of using more of the budget reserve. Or putting class size increases on the table if we are continuing to grow and they need $10 million for new staff and $10 million for a COLA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

I don’t think you understand how the budget works. APS expects to save $300k next year by phasing out TJ funding despite still having to pay the costs you cited. Transportation costs would be an additional savings to APS once the grandfathered students have graduated.

People have provided you with several arguments for why TJ funding should be cut before other line items, repeatedly. That you disagree with them doesn’t mean arguments haven’t been provided.

The only arguments I've seen are:
--the only kids who get in are the ones whose parents test-prep
--people have the option to move to Fairfax
--its elitist

None of those are arguments for why TJ funding should be cut instead of using more of the budget reserve. Or putting class size increases on the table if we are continuing to grow and they need $10 million for new staff and $10 million for a COLA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,

Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.

Sorry, I didn't think I had to spell it out, but I guess I do if people are determined to read this negatively.

All students have the right to a free and appropriate public education. People are complaining about the "extra" cost of TJ compared to what it would cost to educate those students in APS schools. APS schools do not provide courses as challenging as those at TJHSST, nor do they provide the same peer group or extracurricular activities. We invest way more than average in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. Why shouldn't we invest in students with high academic potential--aren't they also entitled to an education that is appropriately challenging, if that is not what is provided in a regular classroom? And if a student lives in Arlington, doesn't Arlington schools have to provide access to an appropriate education, even if the mechanism is busing them to a governor's school located in the next county?

BTW, APS isn't required to provide Montessori, or busing to choice schools, or high school marching band, or lots of other things that are definitively not part of providing a free and appropriate education. But we do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

I don’t think you understand how the budget works. APS expects to save $300k next year by phasing out TJ funding despite still having to pay the costs you cited. Transportation costs would be an additional savings to APS once the grandfathered students have graduated.

People have provided you with several arguments for why TJ funding should be cut before other line items, repeatedly. That you disagree with them doesn’t mean arguments haven’t been provided.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Offering a TJ-like environment is not a requirement, and no student has a right to it. If a family really cares about TJ, they can move to FCPS (most of the neighborhoods in Fairfax are less expensive than Arlington, so cost isn’t a barrier there). All public school systems are required to provide FAPE to students with special needs - it’s not optional because students have a right to FAPE, whether you think they are worth it or not,

Also, it is really gross that you apparently view people as more or less worthy depending on their aptitude for math and science.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

They are running a couple of buses whether there are 15 kids on each or 25 kids, that cost is basically $300,000 a year either way.

No one has made a good argument for why THIS program is not worth it, compared to all of the other programs Arlington provides for students outside of the basic neighborhood school classroom. We invest way more in students with less academic potential because we believe they deserve an appropriate education and that if they live in Arlington then Arlington schools should provide it. There seems to be a sense that only financially "elite" students can access TJHSST, when the real elite in Arlington are not in APS at all (there are more than 29,000 kids aged 5-18 in Arlington, but fewer than 26,000 enrolled in APS K-12).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.

This is just silly. What we know is that APS estimates that cutting funding for 25 students going to TJ, which is only a quarter of those who currently attend (since students already attending would be grandfathered), would result in a *net* savings of $300k. That’s the amount APS expects to save beyond the cost of bringing those students back into APS schools, i.e. the marginal cost of sending those students to TJ that you claim is somehow unknowable.

This further means that once the grandfathered students graduate, APS could potentially save upwards of $1.2 million per year by not sending any students to TJ. That’s real money when you’re talking about cutting APS teachers and increasing class sizes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What if Arlington and Alexandria considered opening a joint program. Could help with crowding and creating a specialized program that is easier for both

That would be even more expensive. Remember this is about budget cuts.

Yes the whole point is that Fairfax already has the whole set up, the only extra cost to us is transportation to Fairfax (we are paying to educate our kids either way). Setting up a new school, or adding more advanced classes for a very small number of students, would be a new cost for APS.

And, as has already been said, you can't pay tuition to attend a governor's school, and you can't charge for transportation (unless you charge all high schoolers, which we don't), or decline to offer it (unless we don't provide it to any high schoolers, which again, is not our policy).

While that's how it's supposed to work in theory, in reality it costs APS more than just transportation costs to send students to TJ. APS basically sends to FCPS the entire cost per pupil for each APS student who goes to TJ. Most of the per-pupil costs are effectively fixed rather than variable costs, though, because the small number of students APS sends to TJ doesn't move the needle on how many teachers are needed, how many high school buses are needed, how big the high schools need to be, etc. So APS sends the full per-pupil cost to FCPS for those students but doesn't see any drop in its own operating budget accordingly, which means those students effectively cost APS twice as much as students who stay in the APS system.

True, but we never know how much the marginal cost is for any kid in APS or how that compares to the system per pupil costs. Some kids need buses, some don't. Some kids are in band or sports, some aren't. Some kids have IEPs and need a lot of supports, some don't. It isn't fair to say that because we pay Fairfax the full per-person cost of those students but APS costs' aren't reduced by the same amount that it "costs" us to send kids to TJ -- for all we know we are coming out ahead on some of those kids. (Unlikely, but possible.)

Of the more than half a billion dollars that APS spends, $300,000 to send our best science and math students to the #1 science and math high school in the country seems like a pretty good deal.